Watched 2 pilots and a P51D die today

[rogerl]

KDRO, 9am. Landed 3, taxiing A for the ramp. P51d w/owner + instructor take off 3 just in front of a centurion who was on long final. P51 takes off, I see gear go up. Remained low gaining speed until near end of rwy. Saw it bank 45, 55 degrees left - I exclaim "that's too steep!". Pilot hit hard up elevator, see the plane from top perspective. Saw a bit of wobble, then go inverted and in. Tip/accelerated stall from about 50, 100 feet. Both dead on impact. Finishing my taxi and tie down is a blur -

Go easy on the controls out there. Our wing is reminiscent of that beautiful yet unforgiving p51s. I never wish anyone to see - much less experience - anything like this.

[Oscar Avalle]

Wow, I am so sorry for the pilots and their family. It only shows... let's be careful.

[WardHolbrook]

Over the years I've witnessed 3 fatal accidents. It's a very sobering experience. I sounds like a torque roll to me. RIP.

[triple8s]

No disrespect, but what the heck do people think when they take off, have low energy and think they can do a risky maneuver close to the ground? I saw a decathlon do a snap roll several years ago right after take off, the guy though he was really something always showing how good he was. The rudder was hanging in the maintenance hangar in the late nineties when I was working towards my private. Low altitude, low energy, and doing steep turns and steep climbs, doesn't make good sense. Those old warbirds are getting fewer and fewer.

[WardHolbrook]

No disrespect, but what the heck do people think when they take off, have low energy and think they can do a risky maneuver close to the ground? I saw a decathlon do a snap roll several years ago right after take off, the guy though he was really something always showing how good he was. The rudder was hanging in the maintenance hangar in the late nineties when I was working towards my private. Low altitude, low energy, and doing steep turns and steep climbs, doesn't make good sense. Those old warbirds are getting fewer and fewer.

A torque roll like this isn't intentional. Those WWII single-engine fighters have massive engines in relation to the size of their airframes. At slow speeds, with a sudden application of power, the torque is simply too much for the flight controls to over come. It's a rookie mistake. I understand the guy was getting checked out in the airplane with a CFI.   

[rbridges]

that is awful to hear.  

[M016576]

Hard to say what happened until the facts are in, but P-51's, F4U's, BF-109's and FW-190's claimed far more pilots in takeoff / landing / departure from controlled flight situations than they did to enemy action, historically. Those aircraft are overpowered, intrinsically unstable (AKA maneuverable), and demanding for even experienced pilots. These are fighter planes.

Having the money to buy a P-51 doesn't mean you should be sitting in one- Typically, though, the sort of people that are capable of earning the kind of money it takes to acquire a P-51 aren't the sort that take no for an answer; and may not know what they are getting themselves into. The rift between professional pilots and aircraft owners grows wider every day....

[NotarPilot]

Didn't Brad Pitt just get a Spitfire as a gift from his... Uh, what exactly is she to him again?

[Rhumbline]

Hard to say what happened until the facts are in,

I've known the instructor for twenty years and, as a former colleague, I know him to be careful, conscientious and professional. No one is infallible, however. I am shocked and deeply saddened by this accident.

I'll avoid this thread and the speculation which naturally occurs but would ask that everyone please take it easy on these guys until more is known about the cause.

[yvesg]

Here is a news link for this. Prayers to families...

http://www.durangoherald.com/article/20140704/NEWS01/140709810/0/FRONTPAGE/2-killed-in-plane-crash-at-Durango-airport

Yves

[Marauder]

Didn't Brad Pitt just get a Spitfire as a gift from his... Uh, what exactly is she to him again?

Wealthy, good looking girlfriend who is also a pilot... Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Marauder]

Did I read the article correctly? He was "learning to fly". I hope it meant he was learning to fly the Mustang.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[fantom]

Another national treasure and two good men lost. A shame.

Put those old, worn out, WW II birds on static display or in museums. Let old, rich, fighter pilot wanna-be's play Tom Cruise on their PC's.

[PTK]

Wow!

Prayers and thoughts are with both of their families.

[Sabremech]

Another national treasure and two good men lost. A shame.Put those old, worn out, WW II birds on static display or in museums. Let old, rich, fighter pilot wanna-be's play Tom Cruise on their PC's.

Not no, but He** no. There are plenty of these aircraft in museums as static display aircraft. It's sad we lost two lives in an accident, but these airplanes belong in the air for the owners to do what they see fit with them. Most choose to share them with the public and there's no better way to experience them than hear and see them in their element. Do you know that most of the airworthy Mustangs have been gone through and restored and are hardly worn out? They may be old in looks and design, but most are relatively new and maintained to a very high standard. The Mustang I maintain has been restored and brought back to airworthy in 2011. They are an awesome machine.

This airplane will be rebuilt and is NOT a national treasure lost.

David

[DaV8or]

Do not fear for the P-51. There is enough tooling, jigs and knowledge to build brand new P-51s if the money and desire is there. I think the only thing they can't make new is the engines and I might be wrong about that. I have no fear that there will always be P-51s flying in my life time. The other WWII types, those are the ones to be concerned about.

[scottfromiowa]

Another national treasure and two good men lost. A shame.Put those old, worn out, WW II birds on static display or in museums. Let old, rich, fighter pilot wanna-be's play Tom Cruise on their PC's.

DON'T like this...and most other posts here. Sorry for the loss of life.

[MB65E]

Only a few engine parts, gear leg castings and Trunions can't be remanufactured yet... Everything else is available...or can be $$$.

I learned this spring that most of them are actually fully certified aircraft. I had thought most were Experimental. Most of the -51s now are pure art! Way nicer than my old Mooney! Lol.

Still pretty sad they let it get away from them.

-Matt

[Seth]

Very Sad.  Condolences to the families. 

 

Yes, more P-51's, and warbirds in general, have been made airworthy each year since the early 1990s.  (if not the late 1980s).  I would love to own a T-6 someday and maybe a piece of a P-51, but the cost of maintenance and the fact that the planes are not at all as well made nor designed for daily use/transportation and longevity are what needs to be realized.  These machines were meant to last a few hundred hours, swap an engine, and fight a war until the next design/upgrade came out, and be flown every few days.  Not last decades and be flown once in a while.  If you understand, as this pilot and CFI probably did, then you should operate as such.  I'm curious if there was an engine issue, or if it simply was poor maneuvering down low as indicated in the original post.

 

I love seeing the aircraft still flying on a regular basis.  Planes need to fly - we have a lot on static display and I have to hand it to the wealthy who keep these birds in the air and thank them for preserving the flying history.  Accidents happen - we just need to mitigate as much risk as possible without reaching the level of non-participation.

 

Be safe - happy 4th!

 

-Seth

[DaV8or]

There was a similar accident down in Camarillo, CA (KCMA) a few years back. A guy bought a P-51 and had just been signed off on his first supervised solo. He made a bad approach and decided to go around. He make the fatal rookie mistake of applying full power. That bird just flipped right over on it's back, end of story. A lot of guys during the war died the same way. Apparently, with a plane like that you never use full power for take off, go arounds or climb out. It's more like 50-75% power. Tough habit to break after so much training and flight time in lower powered planes. This is one type of training fatality the military doesn't have to worry about so much anymore.

 

Maybe they need a full motion P-51 simulator to be built. Enough guys with the money seem to want to own that plane, so I think there is almost a business case for it's construction.

[Guest]

Having spent some time in the back seat of a Mustang, I can attest to the raw power and acceleration on take off or an overshoot. It's like nothing I've had a chance to fly in since. I can easily understand torque induced loss of control at low airspeed.

A truly terrible day for all.

Clarence

[Earl]

Never been in a Mustang but I flew around Texas with a guy in an AT-6 and it was a handful to fly.  Lots of fun and every airport we visited was like an airshow with people coming out to look.