Thoughts on this Mooney

[DaV8or]

Just as is now the case with people that buy used experimentals, you would not be allowed to perform your annuals by yourself. You would still require an IA sign off.

 

An A&P can sign off the annual on any experimental.  It does not require an IA sign off.

 

OK, like I said, I'm just making this stuff up and if it were ever to become a reality, the sort of details like, who can sign off the annual, would have to be hammered out.

[Marauder]

Just as is now the case with people that buy used experimentals, you would not be allowed to perform your annuals by yourself. You would still require an IA sign off.

An A&P can sign off the annual on any experimental. It does not require an IA sign off.

There is a guy based across from me who owns an RV-7. Bought it from the owner and is having a hard time finding a mechanic who will work on it, let alone do an annual on it. I could see he was pretty frustrated with the whole experience.

[Marauder]

Remember, to get use out of the plane and enjoy it, you don't have to have brand new, you don't have to have all glass, you don't have to have IFR capability and you don't have to have redundancy. A used KX-155, a used KT-76 and a Gizmo mount with a used 696 and you're good to go have fun!

And beside, he might be able to sell some of those radios he would be buying as antiques! If those are actually 360 channel radios, it tells me the plane has not been flying for a very long time. I think the 360s were almost completely eliminated from usage in 1997.

[SkyPilot]

When I bought my F is had a KX-155 and an old 360 channel radio. I chucked the old tube unit in the trash. It wasn't even good enough looking to grace the "man cave"

[kerry]

At one time I also had a 720 and narco tubed 360 in my panel at the same time.  One benefit of the 360 I noticed was I could pick up ATIS a lot farther out in the tubed radio.

[triple8s]

Parts I'd say. I saw a fella buy a 1966 E one owner been in a shed for many years had about 800 hrs tt and it was bought for 6500. When it was brought home and really checked out the mice had killed the wing, interior of course was rotten, motor hadn't ran in 20 yr, old radios the story goes on and on but basically there were some usable parts but no way was it economical to rebuild. Sitting in a hangar kills airplanes period.

[Wildhorsesracing]

As the owner of a '62 Mooney M20C that sat for 10 years and needed extensive work to get it airworthy again I would highly recommend buying one!  I love mine, it's paint is flaking off, the tube radio is gone and there's a huge hole in the panel where it was.  It looked just like that one when I found it sitting in the back of a hangar.  It is far from a good looking plane but it is an awesome VFR machine that I love.  The only thing I would enjoy more is the ability to experiment with some things like they can do with Experimental aircraft.

 

Don't listen to the folks who say it takes $5,000,000 to make it "usable" - I would trust my 'C to cross country anytime and it only cost me $5k to get it flying.

[scottfromiowa]

Barnstormers ad said this airframe has been grounded for 30 years...

[63C]

As the owner of a '62 Mooney M20C that sat for 10 years and needed extensive work to get it airworthy again I would highly recommend buying one!  I love mine, it's paint is flaking off, the tube radio is gone and there's a huge hole in the panel where it was.  It looked just like that one when I found it sitting in the back of a hangar.  It is far from a good looking plane but it is an awesome VFR machine that I love.  The only thing I would enjoy more is the ability to experiment with some things like they can do with Experimental aircraft.

 

Don't listen to the folks who say it takes $5,000,000 to make it "usable" - I would trust my 'C to cross country anytime and it only cost me $5k to get it flying.

 

I agree 100%

[scottfromiowa]

The title of the thread was "what do you think..." That means give your opinion. Everyone that gives their opinion...Great. Those that say "don't listen to those knuckleheads"...I say "Whatever". Just give your opinion. You can give an opinion with out being disagreeable, can't you?

An airframe that has been sitting for 30 years is a crapshoot. Who knows what it will take to be airworthy? Who knows what is going to break in the first couple of years. I know I own a former hanger queen and if it was on the plane it broke and was replaced...talking anything with electricity running to it or vacuum. Prop seals,, cylinders, case halves, tires, bearings, brake lines, flap seals, lights, wing walk, battery, wing leveler servo's....some is pennies, some dollars, some hundreds of dollars, some thousands, some tens of thousands. I am not ragging on the plane because of the paint, interior and avionics...It is EVERYTHING else that is likely compromised thorough benign neglect for three decades. Reagan was President whenn the plane was last out of the hanger. Have fun with your project. Acqusition costs are the least expensive thing on this project.

[jetdriven]

Just as is now the case with people that buy used experimentals, you would not be allowed to perform your annuals by yourself. You would still require an IA sign off.

 

An A&P can sign off the annual on any experimental.  It does not require an IA sign off.

There is no annual inspection on an experimental. The annual checks it confirms to its type certificate and is airworthy. Experimental aircraft have no type certificate so the inspection is only for airworthiness. This will be much the same as the new rule for the PNC category.

[BigTex]

There is no annual inspection on an experimental. The annual checks it confirms to its type certificate and is airworthy. Experimental aircraft have no type certificate so the inspection is only for airworthiness. This will be much the same as the new rule for the PNC category.

Actually, they do require an annual inspection. It's called an "condition inspection." If you built the plane, you can apply for a "repairman" license which allows you to do your own annual condition inspections. If you purchased the homebuilt, you'll have to have an IA do the inspection.

[BigTex]

Yep, you are correct. Any A&P can perform the condition inspection.

[jetdriven]

Actually, they do require an annual inspection. It's called an "condition inspection." If you built the plane, you can apply for a "repairman" license which allows you to do your own annual condition inspections. If you purchased the homebuilt, you'll have to have an IA do the inspection.

I don't think the holder of the repairman certificate can do the conditional inspection. It must be an A&P but not the owner.

[BigTex]

I don't think the holder of the repairman certificate can do the conditional inspection. It must be an A&P but not the owner.

Yep, it's very common in the experimental circles that you obtain a Repairman's certificate so you can do your own Condition Inspections on your plane you built.

[1964-M20E]

Yep, it's very common in the experimental circles that you obtain a Repairman's certificate so you can do your own Condition Inspections on your plane you built.

I think as long as you built the plane and have the certificate you can do the annual on it but if you buy the plane already built you need an A&P or IA but you can still do your own work on the plane.

[DaV8or]

Here are the relevant FAA bits regarding the "Repairman's Certificate" and Experimental Amateur Built airplanes.

 

 

§65.104   Repairman certificate—experimental aircraft builder—Eligibility, privileges and limitations.

(a) To be eligible for a repairman certificate (experimental aircraft builder), an individual must—

(1) Be at least 18 years of age;

(2) Be the primary builder of the aircraft to which the privileges of the certificate are applicable;

(3) Show to the satisfaction of the Administrator that the individual has the requisite skill to determine whether the aircraft is in a condition for safe operations; and

(4) Be a citizen of the United States or an individual citizen of a foreign country who has lawfully been admitted for permanent residence in the United States.

( The holder of a repairman certificate (experimental aircraft builder) may perform condition inspections on the aircraft constructed by the holder in accordance with the operating limitations of that aircraft.

© Section 65.103 does not apply to the holder of a repairman certificate (experimental aircraft builder) while performing under that certificate.

 

So, you can do the annual condition inspection on the plane only if you built it. You are also restricted to that exact plane, not one just like it. In other words, if you build an RV-7 you can do your annuals on your plane, but not your buddies RV-7. In addition, if you sell your RV-7, they guy who buys it can bring it back to you for his annuals.

[Marauder]

Here are the relevant FAA bits regarding the "Repairman's Certificate" and Experimental Amateur Built airplanes.

So, you can do the annual condition inspection on the plane only if you built it. You are also restricted to that exact plane, not one just like it. In other words, if you build an RV-7 you can do your annuals on your plane, but not your buddies RV-7. In addition, if you sell your RV-7, they guy who buys it can bring it back to you for his annuals.

And what you are providing Dave is the reason the guy I mentioned above is challenged. He didn't build it, the guy who did is over 1500 miles away, he is not mechanically inclined and none of the local mechanics want to touch it.

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[kerry]

I can understand why A&P's and IA's don't want to waste their time and be liable with signing off the yearly inspection on a experimental.  I have an experimental that I did not build.  I do all the work on the plane and I've never had issues with finding a A&P signing it off each year.  I would suggest your friend join EAA and hang out with local chapter.  I think once he gets to know some of the local EAA people he'll find someone that will sign off his airplane if it's airworthy.

[Yetti]

Back the to original topic.   I would do the deal, maybe at a lower number.  You are buying an airframe, if anything else works, it is bonus.   So the airframe is going to work as long as there is no corrosion. So you need to know this:

1. Check the wheel wells for corrosion.

2. Inspection of the main spar for corrosion.

3. Inspection of the cromoly tubing for corrosion. Loosen interior panels and bore scope.

4. Sump fuel tanks and ensure there is no particulate matter

5. Do the Mooney SB20-217 rear spar inspection

6. Pull the seat and check the sub spar for corrosion.

7. Check every where for critters.

8. Check tanks for varnish smell and know they are going to need to be cleaned out.

9. AD 2012-03-52 Huck bolts in the rear hinge check.

 

If all those go good, then you bought an airframe.

 

Triflow all moving parts. 

 

Blow out the fuel lines till they run clear. buy 5 gallons of varisol.  It will be your friend.

Replace all hoses and belts.

 

pull plugs and soak cylinders before moving propeller, drain all fluids and replace

 

Slowly go though energizing each circuit.  Make sure nothing is smoking before moving on.

 

For the panel it is crazy to put lots of money into it when you can have the same capabilities in hand held devices.  Buy several IPads and an ADS B receiver.

 

Get a used King radio to throw in the panel.  pull all the old stuff out.

 

New tires and shock discs

 

compound and wax

 

So now you should have a flyable VFR plane for about $20-25K and lots of pride of ownership.

 

Spend a couple grand on a new interior over the next several years.

[BigTex]

To bring this plane up to today's standards, your looking at a new engine, complete new set of avionics, tank reseal/bladders, shock disks, paint and interior at a minimum. When all said and done you will likely be looking at sinking $75-$80K into this plane not counting the purchase price. When you attempt to sell it down the road, you'll take a bath on it.

If this was a 201 that has a higher ceiling value, it might be worth it but not for a C model. So as much as it pains me to say it, this plane really needs to be parted out.

If you do decide to purchase it to be parted out, I'll take the elevators and flaps.

[DaV8or]

Another thing to consider on this old airplane. If it hasn't flown in 30 years, there are going to be a fair number of ADs to comply with. Go to the Mooney site and get the list to see if there are likely any expensive ones to do. Might check the SBs too and decide if there are any that give you concern.

[rdman]

I elected not to go view the plane as for it to really make any sense the seller would just have to give it to me.  I am lucky that my friend allows me to fly his 20E whenever I want it.  I hope in a few years to find a 201 with all the stuff I want. 

[Marauder]

I elected not to go view the plane as for it to really make any sense the seller would just have to give it to me. I am lucky that my friend allows me to fly his 20E whenever I want it. I hope in a few years to find a 201 with all the stuff I want.

Did you ask him if he would give it to you or for a low price? Sometimes people are motivated and will accept less just because they are tired dealing with it.

[PTK]

Seems like it's been hangared virtually it's entire life!