garysuperpilot Posted May 4, 2014 Report Share Posted May 4, 2014 I have been having some issues with hot start on my 67 m20f . I know I've read the threads I could find about hot starts and I still seem to have problems on occasion. After needing a jump to get my plane home yesterday I said "I'll just get one of those high speed sky tech starters. While looking online I noticed people are not doing well with the 149-ls model that I thought I wanted . Instead the 149-nl is the preferred choice but I'm trying to figure out if that starter will do any better than the original equipment starter. Is the NL model the one people have been using successfully and has it been noticeably faster? Tired of getting stuck. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted May 4, 2014 Report Share Posted May 4, 2014 Hi Gary. My starter on my F was giving me problems last Fall and my mechanic recommended I go with the NL. Before having it installed, I took the advice of folks here and have been able to get my old style to work. The problem with my plane was the Bendix not engaging. I cleaned out the area and lubricated with Sea Foam's Deep Creep. The stuff is unbelievable. A faster spinning starter will help you, but you will need to find the right combination to make the hot starts a non issue. I swear each F needs to be stroke a little differently In my case, I shut down with the RPM at 1000. I leave everything the way it was and begin advancing the throttle while cranking. About half way up, the engine will engage and I do a Delaware 2 step to advance the mixture while retarding the throttle. What year F? Sent using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EDNR-Cruiser Posted May 4, 2014 Report Share Posted May 4, 2014 Maybe you just need a new battery and some confidence in proven tactics? When I bought my M20F early last year I was also humbled by several unsuccessful hot starts and twice almost killed my old battery. When I had my Mooney in the shop for the annual I also asked for a new high speed starter but the shop manager advised against it. He told me that he had a lot of warranty problems with the high speed starters and that my battery was already 10 years old. In the end I went for a new Concorde sealed battery and guess what... - never again a problem with hot starts when using the proven old tactics... Engine off: Throttle to 1100 to 1200 rpm, mixture to idle cut off to stop the engine - DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING AFTER THAT Engine hot start: DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING except Master Switch On and then turn ignition on until engine fires (usually 5-10 blades). Then push MIXTURE forward (not too fast, about 1-2 seconds to full) and use throttle to keep engine alive. That's it for me. Never needed a second attempt to hot start my IO-360-A1A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowflyin Posted May 4, 2014 Report Share Posted May 4, 2014 I replaced mine with the 149-nl and my hot start issues are gone. I would never switch back. That being said, these starters are lighter which is great but they don't have the capacity to absorb heat as well as the stock units. If is doesn't start observe the restrictions as outlined on the placard that comes in the box. If you crank it endlessly it will burn up. One caveat- I also replaced my battery with a new Concord extra capacity at the same time. joe 70 m20f Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clh Posted May 4, 2014 Report Share Posted May 4, 2014 Over the last seven years, I have used the -ls and -nl starters, replaced the battery, magnetos, and the "Shower of Sparks". My experience/opinion is as follows: 1. Check battery first. I had a battery that would crank all day, but not reach the peak amps to throw over the prop fast enough to start. 2. don't even think of considering the -ls starter it was a total waste of money. (the -nl starter is much better, and the sky-tech folks are really great to work with) 3. Magnetos timing can drift. This affects the ease of starting. (it was supposedly a real fluke. The two mechanics with about 70 yrs combined experience had never seen this before) 4. there are "shower of sparks" and there are what I call "light drizzle of sparks" Changing out a $3 condenser by replacing the $450 unit is worth every penny. I am never sure what makes the plane start good. It appears to be a crap shoot. But if you follow cruiser's protocol, it works best. good luck, PS, if anyone is interested, I have a whole bunch of spare parts that may or may not work..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garysuperpilot Posted May 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2014 The battery is also something I'm considering. The Gill was put in last May when I bought the plane . The one year old Gill battery seems to hold for a while but by the time I get to try the flood start procedure it doesn't have the power to do much. I had a Gill In my last plane and when I switched to the Concorde i was much happier . I probably should change both but with my annual due this month I'm thinking it will be the best time for the starter change if it will help. Speaking of the battery is the Concorde with the extra capacity much better? Very little price difference. Maybe I should try the Concorde first as I never seem to get much more than two or three years from the Gill brand. Decisions,decisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted May 4, 2014 Report Share Posted May 4, 2014 The battery is also something I'm considering. The Gill was put in last May when I bought the plane . The one year old Gill battery seems to hold for a while but by the time I get to try the flood start procedure it doesn't have the power to do much. I had a Gill In my last plane and when I switched to the Concorde i was much happier . I probably should change both but with my annual due this month I'm thinking it will be the best time for the starter change if it will help. Speaking of the battery is the Concorde with the extra capacity much better? Very little price difference. Maybe I should try the Concorde first as I never seem to get much more than two or three years from the Gill brand. Decisions,decisions. The Gills are really problematic. Before I did anything with the starter, I would switch over to the Concorde. I went through a couple of Gills before the Concorde light bulb went off. I switched the first one out at 7 years because I thought that it was getting long in the tooth. The next one has been there since 2004. It will be 10 years this year since it was installed! Sent using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 4, 2014 Report Share Posted May 4, 2014 I'd be looking at the battery, battery cable terminal ends, ground contact at the avionics shelf where the battery ground, starter power terminal, engine ground connection at the co pilots foot well. Simple things first then more expensive things. If all connections are good check the condition of your battery, electrolyte level and specific gravity. See if you can borrow a t friends battery to trouble shoot first. This should lead you to a solution. If its the battery use a Concord, if its the starter a Sky-tec 149Nl, more torque, faster cranking and 10 pounds lighter. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloridaMan Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 I have a slick-start system on mine and it only failed to start when a magneto coil went bad. Standard mag checks under the condition were intermittent; keep an eye out of high EGTs in flight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garysuperpilot Posted May 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 Having the annual done this month and we'll check items that might be contributing to the battery issue. I'm going to wait till then to consider changing the starter. Probably go with the Concorde soon either way once we know cables and connections are sound. I'll let you know what we come up with and thanks for your input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lood Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 A high speed, light weight starter does indeed improve starting, but like a few other posters said, you must also get your technique right. If not, you might still get stuck, even with a high speed starter. Remember that these starters draw a huge amount of current from your battery, so if you miss two, or so starts due to wrong technique, you might not have get another chances before the battery calls it a day. FWIW, I had my Skytech starter fail after two years and I replaced it with a B&C - never looked back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB65E Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 Ok... Granted the NL starter is better in torque, better design etc... But what has everyone experienced that's so wrong with the LS? I had a great deal on an Fresh LS, and slapped it on. Any Skytech is better than the old boat anchor! And yes, Skytech co., Is probably one of the best companies in general aviation at the moment! The LS works great on the 4 bangers from what I can tell. Yes, an NL would be better but as far as I can tell, I haven't noticed any bad with the LS. Crank on! -Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garysuperpilot Posted May 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 So to be clear on the battery issue does the extra capacity Concorde fit into the standard battery box? I understand there is a 2.5 lb weight increase but I'm not concerned over the small amount. My useful load is more than adequate. I'm sure I'll end up with a concorde if not now next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N601RX Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 You didn't mention what kind of ignition you had or how many hrs was on the mags, but if the old starter is spinning it reasonably well your money might be better spent looking at the mags and shower of of sparks. Around $120 in parts for my shower of sparks fixed my hot starts. Ask your mechanic to set up a spark gap like the SOS overhaul manual calls for and make sure it is performing correctly. http://mooneyspace.com/topic/8019-hard-to-start/?hl=%2Bshower+%2Bsparks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 Before adding 2.5 lbs of extra battery weight.... Check the effect it has on your W&B. Not hard to do. You might find some extra boat anchors that are hidden in there as well. Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garysuperpilot Posted May 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 My mechanic worked on the shower of sparks and both mags a few months back as the plane would not start at all. The shower of sparks was the problem last time. The mags only have about 70 hours since overhaul. All seemed great until I had problems a few days ago. Definitely worth a second look as we're doing the annual and have everything open. Thanks for all the ideas and thoughts. I'll wait to see what we find before I proceed with the starter and the battery. This is the first annual I am doing since we purchased the plane so we will spend some extra time with it. Kind of looking forward to get to know the plane better. I will be there for all of the work and do whatever I can. My mechanic is great about letting me assist. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EDNR-Cruiser Posted May 6, 2014 Report Share Posted May 6, 2014 So to be clear on the battery issue does the extra capacity Concorde fit into the standard battery box? I understand there is a 2.5 lb weight increase but I'm not concerned over the small amount. My useful load is more than adequate. I'm sure I'll end up with a concorde if not now next year. The Concorde battery I bought (RG-35AGX) fit into the old box without any problems... - and I still consider it as one of my best purchases... No problems with the battery or starting since I replaced my old Gill with the Concorde last year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garysuperpilot Posted May 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2014 Good to know. I was just looking at the dimensions and couldn't see a problem. Always good to know someone who has been there and done that. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottfromiowa Posted May 6, 2014 Report Share Posted May 6, 2014 The Gills are really problematic. Before I did anything with the starter, I would switch over to the Concorde. I went through a couple of Gills before the Concorde light bulb went off. I switched the first one out at 7 years because I thought that it was getting long in the tooth. The next one has been there since 2004. It will be 10 years this year since it was installed! Sent using Tapatalk +1 Could have been me writing that. The difference in reduced maintenance/length of service and cranking power of the Concorde is a NO-Brainer. THE BEST (for the money) upgrade I ever did with my plane. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted May 7, 2014 Report Share Posted May 7, 2014 The Concorde battery I bought (RG-35AGX) fit into the old box without any problems... - and I still consider it as one of my best purchases... No problems with the battery or starting since I replaced my old Gill with the Concorde last year. I have the same battery in my 1975 F. Fits fine. Sent using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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