M20F Landing Configuration

[bgpilot1]

OK, so I've got several hours in an M20F - transitioned from Cherokee 140.  I haven't seen a post on landing configurations so thought I would start one.  Question - how do people with M20s, no speed brakes, set power and flaps when flying the pattern and landing?

With the Cherokee I was comfortable flying higher pattern, chopping the power and bringing it in no problem - very easy with the big wing, full flaps or slip with partial flaps. Piper Arrow - just as easy.

With the M20F I enter the pattern between 110 and 100 MPH, 1000ft pattern altitude.  MP is around 16 or 17, RPM between 20 - 25.  Gear down once on downwind.  Get speed to 100 MPH for 2 pumps on flaps even with numbers.  Now I'm going up on the trim to keep speed at 100.  Trying to fly wider pattern than in Cherokee - sorry for the guy behind me in the Pitts but no worries.  Even at 16 MP, keep ending up high on final then having to chop the power or slip.  Don't want to do this with the engine - should I worry?  Getting speed down to 90 on base and 80 on final certainly takes concentration.  When I touch down with 2 pumps of flaps, usually a good landing but seems a bit fast.  When full flaps, without too nose high, nose wheel seems to always want to bounce - shock has been removed per Mooney instructions but those biscuits are not so absorbant.  I think the previous owner said he always used 2 pumps only when landing.  Heard not to go full with mixture and prop until on final.  I'm bleeding speed over the numbers and touching down usually near stall.  Any suggestions - outside the obvious - training with a flight instructor with Mooney time - none exist, in Memphis or Seattle, from my knowledge.  Practice...Practice.

Thoughts - based on slight headwind, no crosswind?

Thanks,

Barry

[danb35]

I don't think it makes a difference to your question, but I don't go full on mixture and prop until a go-around.  I also wouldn't worry about cutting the power, particularly with only 16" MP anyway--you're not going to hurt the engine with that.

[mooneygirl]

I think you have brought up a very common problem for those who are transitioning to a Mooney.  Here is what I do in my E model...  Enter 45 at 120 mph, get the gear down, downwind at 100 mph.  Like you I chop the power down when I am at the numbers.. I do about 12 on the manifold pressure.  Depending on wind and such, two pumps of flaps, at the numbers, trim for 90 mph.  Turn base, and another pump of flaps and I am already trimmed for 90. I keep my rate of descent at 500 fpm.  On long final trim to 80 mph and do whatever is necessary with flaps dependent on wind etc. Maintain 500 feet per minute descent.  Short Final is 75 mph for me, and I use the trottle to take care of my rate.  I cross the numbers at 70 mph, level out, let her settle down, and then flare.  Whenever I use my numbers,  I do very well.  You cannot point a Mooney at the runway. They will speed up and bounce. 

Before you all say it...there are wind/fuel/weight considerations. But on my usual landings, with our usual passengers and Lucy Lucas Aviation Cat, that is what I do.

Practice practice practice

 

Don Kaye has a good video on landings in a Mooney.

[KLRDMD]

100, 90, 80 mph on downwind, base and final. Transition to 75 mph on very short final. Alterations as necessary based on weight. Once in the pattern with the dear down, 14-15" MP until final and then as needed. Always land with full flaps unless there is a good reason to not do so (gusty crosswinds, etc.). Bouncing is an indication the airplane's still too fast on touchdown; keep it off the runway as long as possible. No reason to fly a wider pattern than in any other single engine airplane.

[Gone]

I am like Ken and Jolie:

120 for gear down over the airfield midfield.  Reduce MP to 15" and turn on downwind. 

Abeam the numbers down to 12" and slight nose up to bleed the speed for 100 mph.  Two pumps of flaps and down to 90 mph, turn base and start the descent.  Trim up to keep it at 500 fpm. 

Turn final and one more pump of flap - more trim up.  500 fpm and 80 mph.  Last pump of flap and full trim up and cross the fence near 75 mph. 

Level off over the threshold and wait for her to settle - hold the nose a little high listen for the chirp of the stall warning horn.  When the mains touch - full aft elevator to hold the nose off until elevator has no more authority.

Aaahhh......  Didn't that feel good?

 

[mooneygirl]

You know, Ned, when that happens I do the "happy landing dance".  When I don't I keep thinking "what could I have done differently?"  My brother, a Bonanza pilot [we still let him in the family because he has about 1000 in a C model] says Mooney pilots talk about their landings too much...  Hmmm

 

[MB_M20F]

I too am like Ken and Jolie and Ned, except that I don't pump flaps (mine are electric) and I have no clue what my MP is. Airspeed is the key. Under normal conditions, I slow to 75mph over the fence with full flaps. Then I wait a few seconds and ask the tower "am I down yet?"

Morten 1970 M20F

[Hank]

     There are as many variations of landing procedures as there are pilots. When I transitioned from brand-C with a still-damp temporary certificate, I learned to keep it simple in my C. Enter the pattern at 1000 agl [1600 msl at home]; use the prop control as a speedbrake if needed, but enter at 100 or less. Midfield downwind, half flaps, drop gear, trim for 90 mph and back off the throttle enough for a good descent. Maintain 90 on base, turn final and slow to 85. Just like in the beginning, pitch for speed and throttle for altitude. Add extra flaps only if needed [i'm high]. Clear the trees at 650-700 msl, throttle to idle, and I'm on the ground gently at ~500 past the numbers. With no trees it is easier. At shutdown, my trim indicator is usually very close to where I set it for two-person no flap departure--touching the top edge of the Takeoff mark.

     There are two important keys:  speed management is critical, and you learn it by practice. Having only one power reduction [when I drop the gear] and two speeds to worry about [90 all the way, 85 on final] allows me to nail the speed while controlling path and watching the trees. If throttling back won't get me down at 85 indicated, add some flaps; if I'm still not down, push everything forward and climb over the trees at the other end, throttle back on crosswind to 16-18"/2300-2400 and try again. Then you won't climb too high or get too fast. Your F has more power than me, but I rarely look at MP--I focus on airspeed, altitude and descent rate.

[Hank]

     One other thing I have a hard time remembering:  reduce speed on final by 5 mph for every 300 lbs below gross. Mooney's will not land fast, and will not slow down in a descent. Plan your descent to pattern altitude well in advance of the field. Don't try to enter the pattern above 100 until you have 50 hours or so, or lots of practice. "Speed management" cannot be over-emphasized, and our flaps are small.

     In the flare, keep the nose up and let the plane settle on its own. If you can see the AS, it should be well under 70, but I'm usually looking down the field then. Unless its gusty or crosswind, I often get the stall horn too. My half-flap, max gross stall is 64 mph. Trying to set down faster than that will put it on the nose wheel, and too much faster will lead directly to a porpoise . . . followed by your choice of full power or a visit from the NTSB.

[Guest Anonymous]

Mooneys are easy to land well if you pay attention to airspeed into the flare and not force the airplane onto the runway.  I was taught years ago by Sy Kipp, a legendary Mooney lover and used Mooney salesman in California.  He told me at the time, that if it was necessary to release back pressure (pitch down) at any time in the flare, then I was doing it wrong, and a go-around is a possibility to avoid getting the nosewheel.  The correct method is a gradual, constant pitch up in the flare with the rate being adjusted for height above the runway.  If done correctly you get the stall horn just about the time the aircraft starts to sink and the mains touch - and it is only a small drop of several inches to the runway that barely compresses the donuts.

Very satisfying, and not at all difficult.

[Personal pet peeve as an instructor] pilots that "pump" the yoke while in the flare and in ground effect.  This is usually symptomatic of overcontrolling.

RFB

 

 

[Immelman]

There's nothing wrong with power off approaches from downwind.. I do them all the time to stay sharp. I would add about 5mph approach speed over that of a powered approach to give a little bit of extra energy for a nice round out and flare without 'plunking' it on.

If I want to do a powered approach, I forget about manifold pressure entirely -- prop full forward, bring the power back until the prop is out of governing range and the rpm around 1700, and then adjust up and down. I DO like powered approaches for windy conditions where you want to make quick adjustments, and doing them with a reduced power setting lets you make such adjustments by ear alone (RPM change).

 

[bgpilot1]

Thanks for all the responses - i'm sure they will help the next guy or gal transitioning to a Mooney. 

Airspeed and descent rate are certainly the key!  Starting final too high or to close obviously are causes for good power managment and landing techniques.

Thanks,

Barry

[WardHolbrook]

As of tonight, I am at exactly 11,628 landings (thanks Logbook Pro) - if you don't count the bounces. I have finally discovered the secret to making good landings, every time, in any airplane. In the beginning, I figured that it had to do with maintaining a stabilized approach and proper airspeed control; but, alas, that wasn't it. I then worked up a theory that involved planetary alignment and moon phases. I was getting closer. I finally put it all together when I figured out how to hold my mouth - you have hold it just right and the planets have to be in proper alignment and the moon has to be in the proper phase, in addition to flying a nice smooth stabilized approach and exercising proper airspeed control. If you get a greaser other than when you're doing all of that you're just lucky.

[Stefanovm]

I have an E, shorter body, so I am not sure if my input belongs here. I now have 40+ landings in my E, starting 3/13/10. My total landings are around 5,500. I use power at idle stop 90%+ of the time VFR from downwind to base turn. IFR is a different set of variables and I have only done a simulated IFR landing in my Mooney up to now. My total IFR to minimums landings, almost as many as my total Mooney landings, not many, have been smooth. The power manipulation and other instrument checking such as Altitude, VSI, etc. are much more prevalent IFR. The only one for which I can state a figure is the VSI at 400 to 600 on final. I am pretty sure I am close to that rate VFR.

Twenty plus of the Mooney landings have been at my 2,500 grass strip. Ten plus were at KFHU, 12001 x 150 feet, but with a density altitude of 8,000 feet. The other ten or so were at paved runways of various lengths, most in the 3,000 to 5,000 foot range. I use full flaps most of the time with partial to get practice used only several times. It takes 7 1/2 handle pumps for full deploy of my E's flaps. I go to 4 pumps before final, below 100 mph, and full flaps after on final. Most of the time the last two pumps (3/4 to full) are only when I am assured of landing. I only pay attention to two items, airspeed and the intended touch down point. I have cross checked the VSI once or twice in VFR. I use the airspeeds 90 to 100 downwind, 85 to 90 base, 80 to 85 final, 70 to 75 at 07TS's trees or landing assured as a starting point, varied by load using similar to the 300 pound rule given above utilizing a gusting and/or crosswind factor.

I "fly" the airplane to the touch down point, but find it is more of a challenge to do power off compared to my C152 and even my C310. I still carry a small bit of power on final, but cannot say what the MP is as I rarely look at it. I usually only carry an imperceptible throttle movement unless I add when I have underestimated the descent rate, then it might be an inch plus of throttle movement in the Mooney. I still tend to carry this inch plus of throttle movement in the Mooney from downwind.  I should get better with experience as I do not like adding power after I have gone to idle stop, VFR. The Mooney's ability to slow down to increase the descent rate is a bit different than the C152, although more like the C310 (1985 a long time ago). I still carry more power in the Mooney VFR than I am used to doing in anything but a King Air, turbine difference.

I have had two Mooney one-bounce landings. I perormed a go around at a paved no obstruction 3,000 foot runway. I started the go around well above the ground, not due to a bounce, but to excessive speed and altitude at my average landing assured check point of about 50 to 200 feet agl. One of the bounces was at KFHU with 20 kts gusting to 30 kts at 30 degrees to the left of the runway heading after nine uneventful squeaker landings with less than an inch of pitch control left after main wheel touch. The second touchdown not hard, at least according to my passengers, but less than I expect of myself. The turbulence that day was un-nerving to me by the tenth landing, all aboard were just riders, the W&B changed with every different set of passengers, so I may have been a bit lax on the airspeed control, or tired, but it may have been a short wind speed drop. The other bounce was at my grass strip leading me to use 1,800 feet of the 2,700 feet. I let the airspeed get away on final, lost my feel for the distance to the runway, and was then too anxious to get on the ground. Both bounces were not high enough that I came out of ground effect and I had the extra speed to allow the aicraft to settle by subtly relaxing my pulling back effort and waiting. The one at my grass strip also had less than an inch of control wheel pitch movement left and almost continuous stall horn at a smooth second touch down, which limits my ability to keep the nose off the roughness for very long. However, my normal no-bounce landings have the same conditions.