Flap Pump Questions

[Shadrach]

11 hours ago, captainglen said:

The springiness to the pump is not normal as I am sure you noticed while rebuilding the pump there is no spring. The pumping is done by the shaft side of the piston so extending the rod moves fluid to the flap actuator. The far side of the piston breathes air through the weep hole; if the piston seal is bad 5606 will be vented through the weep hole. The only think of that could cause a spring action is if the weep hole were clogged allowing air pressure to build behind the piston. While I am at it though and since you have been through this a few times; is there any trick to bleeding the flaps.

 

Holy thread resurrection from 2.5 years ago. Flaps are best bled from bottom to top with a pressure bleeder as I outlined on the preceding page.

[Yetti]

Is this were Maurader and I return the favor and say we don't have all these issues with electric gear and flaps....  Messy red colored flammable mineral oil all over the place.  yech! Just wondering :-)

[Marauder]

Is this were Maurader and I return the favor and say we don't have all these issues with electric gear and flaps....  Messy red colored flammable mineral oil all over the place.  yech! Just wondering :-)

Yep, right up to the point where they say "better red (fluid) than dead (limit switch)"

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[Raptor05121]

My flaps retract in less than 2 seconds, is that bad?

[orionflt]

It is a little fast, there is an adjustment screw on the pump that will allow you to slow it down, I would have to look at the manual to get the proper retract time.

Brian

[carusoam]

Alex,

Your are onto the next level of Mooney ownership experience!

Of course, dumping flaps so rapidly can cause a stall situation to occur.

As Brian points out there is a retract time that can be set with the screw.  The time on the ground is nearly twice as when under pressure of flight.  Follow the MM guidelines.  I liked slow moving flaps on my C.

If you find a lot of red gunk on the belly panels... (Since you are in there category)

1) brakes and flaps are using the same reservoir.

2) return lines for the fluid age in an ugly bubbled hard brittle kind of way.

3) leaks will lose flaps first before brakes.

4) new return hoses are not too expensive.

5) new O rings for the flap pump are easy to find.

6) know that the ball for the check valve will escape and is tough to put back.

7) getting air primed out of the flap system is part skill, or magic.

It's your mission, if you choose to accept it!

Best regards,

-a-

[Shadrach]

5 hours ago, Raptor05121 said:

My flaps retract in less than 2 seconds, is that bad?

In the air or on the ground?  It's out of spec either way.

[M20F]

9 hours ago, Raptor05121 said:

My flaps retract in less than 2 seconds, is that bad?

Don Maxwell posted how to adjust to MAPA list today by chance.

EPSON002.PDF

[Andy95W]

13 hours ago, Raptor05121 said:

My flaps retract in less than 2 seconds, is that bad?

If your annual is due in the next 2 or 3 months, I'd wait, as long as you're familiar with the airplane, it's issues, and the potential hazard.

Ii is a very easy adjustment using the diagram posted in the link above.  Key statement is that 1/8" turn is a lot of adjustment.  The travel from locked down to instantaneous retraction is less than 1/4 turn.

Grab a friend, spend about 2-3 hours working on your plane, have fun, drink beer afterwards. All in all, a good day!

[Raptor05121]

8 hours ago, N1395W said:

If your annual is due in the next 2 or 3 months, I'd wait,

hahahahaa. Have you read my thread?

[Andy95W]

3 hours ago, Raptor05121 said:

hahahahaa. Have you read my thread?

Were you the one that bought the airplane about 6 months ago and had to go through 2 different IAs to get it done?  Sorry, I don't have everyone's stories memorized here...

[Raptor05121]

On 3/2/2016 at 10:59 AM, N1395W said:

Were you the one that bought the airplane about 6 months ago and had to go through 2 different IAs to get it done?  Sorry, I don't have everyone's stories memorized here...

Yep. Ferried her to a new airport last month, mechanic said hes not even going to begin to look at it until next month. Maybe I can have it airworthy before next year?

[captainglen]

  Finally got the bleed accomplished; I found a Schrader valve with an1/8" NPT will fit the top of the hydraulic reservoir with the vent fitting removed. The brakes can be bled till clean red fluid runs out and the same for the flap system with 50 PSI of air.

  On the subject of electric gear and flaps, just try and rebuild one of those actuators yourself and finding rebuilt ones or a shop that can do it is difficult and expensive. I ran away from electrics, 20 amps for gear, 20 amps for flaps, 2EA 20 amp landing lights, 5 amps navigation lights, 3 amps for the strobe, 3 amps for instrument lights, 10 amps to transmit on VHF and a 50 amp alternator. Turn off the landing lights to lower the gear or the Alt breaker will open! In the Mooney M20C I never have to worry about an overload.

[JaredDavis]

Hi,

Went to go flying yesterday and the flap handle had no resistance. Some 5606 dripping from the belly. We think it is the o-rings on the flap actuator piston.

Is Lasar the best source for the piston rebuild kit?

Is leather still the preferred material for the piston? The current one only lasted 50 years.<g>

Any hints or warnings for the AP on removal of the actuator? Can it be serviced in place?

As carusoam suggests, how difficult is it to replace the 3 hoses between the pump and the actuator? If you have to bleed, why not make it better?  Two look like generic numbers, the third looks like a mooney model number:

SF111-312-312-4-12  (Strato flex 111-4, 12" long with AN?312 on each end?)

SF111-312-312-4-27 (Strato flex 111-4, 27" long with AN?312 on each end?)

750000-9 - Is it just AL line with two flares?  Seems like the A/P could make that one.

 

Edited March 7, 2016 by JaredDavis

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, JaredDavis said:

Hi,

Went to go flying yesterday and the flap handle had no resistance. Some 5606 dripping from the belly. We think it is the o-rings on the flap actuator piston.

Is Lasar the best source for the piston rebuild kit?

Is leather still the preferred material for the piston? The current one only lasted 50 years.<g>

Any hints or warnings for the AP on removal of the actuator? Can it be serviced in place?

As carusoam suggests, how difficult is it to replace the 3 hoses between the pump and the actuator? If you have to bleed, why not make it better?  Two look like generic numbers, the third looks like a mooney model number:

SF111-312-312-4-12  (Strato flex 111-4, 12" long with AN?312 on each end?)

SF111-312-312-4-27 (Strato flex 111-4, 27" long with AN?312 on each end?)

750000-9 - Is it just AL line with two flares?  Seems like the A/P could make that one.

 

I would order kits for both (pump and actuator) from LASAR. Inexpensive and good to have on hand just in case.  I had a weird issue with my actuator a few years ago.  The actuator was puking fluid so I ordered a rebuild kit from LASAR immediately. After removing the actuator and cleaning it, I could find nothing wrong. I reassembled it and put it on a hydrostatic test pump and to my surprise, it tested fine. I let it sit pressurized to 1200psi for several minute with no leaks. It's been fine ever since. Perhaps it was a small piece of FOD.

[Wildhorsesracing]

FWIW - I have found that my actuator will weep in the summer if I leave my flaps in the extended position.  Retract them post flight and no weepage...  YMMV.

[JaredDavis]

Jim-

I wish it was warm enough for that to be an issue.

Regards,

Jared

[Shadrach]

12 hours ago, Wildhorsesracing said:

FWIW - I have found that my actuator will weep in the summer if I leave my flaps in the extended position.  Retract them post flight and no weepage...  YMMV.

For what it's worth, you should service it.  The actuator should not "weep". The actuator is also the easiest part of the system to overhaul.

[N201MKTurbo]

If you pump them down hard and the fluid expands, it has no where to go. I can see it forcing the expansion fluid past the seals. Leaving them down when they can heat up is probably a bad deal.

[Jim Peace]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

 Leaving them down when they can heat up is probably a bad deal.

Very true.  Happened to me.  Left the plane at a paint shop in SoCal.  They had the flaps down for a long time, possible days during 110 degree heat.  Needless to say the flaps did not work when I took the plane back.  My mechanic is great at this old school system.  Fixed in a couple of hours with new seals etc.....

[Wildhorsesracing]

4 hours ago, Shadrach said:

For what it's worth, you should service it.  The actuator should not "weep". The actuator is also the easiest part of the system to overhaul.

Did that two years ago when it happened the 1st time, replaced the seals fixed it.  Noticed it last summer again so I decided to leave the flaps "up/retracted" post flight and hasn't been an issue since.  It's just a matter of fluid expansion having no where to go.

[Wildhorsesracing]

5 hours ago, JaredDavis said:

Jim-

I wish it was warm enough for that to be an issue.

Regards,

Jared

LOL! It's already in the 70's here... I don't miss upstate NY one bit!   

[JaredDavis]

Hi,

We replaced the leather and o-ring on the flap piston and bleed the system from the actuator up. The first pump on the flap handle does nothing. The second pump starts the flaps moving.

Should we bleed it again or will the air work its way out of the system over time?

Regards,

Jared + 2 new to Mooney APs.

[Andy95W]

Both times I've done this job (2 different airplanes) it got better overtime.

Total pumps for full extension went from about 5 to 4 1/2.

[DXB]

15 minutes ago, JaredDavis said:

Hi,

We replaced the leather and o-ring on the flap piston and bleed the system from the actuator up. The first pump on the flap handle does nothing. The second pump starts the flaps moving.

Should we bleed it again or will the air work its way out of the system over time?

Regards,

Jared + 2 new to Mooney APs.

If you dont want to bleed again, pump the handle about a million times with the locking tab in the up position.  You really have to pump it ALOT.   It's worked like a charm for me on multiple occasions. Make sure reservior is full so theres excess to make up for the air you displace.