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It goes without saying that I feel for this pilot's family etc. As to our learning from it; I worry a little. This case, like those who die after departing into a known thunderstorms, is easy. We read about them and conclude we wouldn't have taken off under those conditions. We can pat ourselves on the back and feel safe. But I worry a lot more about those who "buy the farm" when taking off in only a little worse conditions than they could handle. I have done it, and I expect that most everyone here has. Unfortunately, my belief is that if we only flew in weather we feel very comfortable with, we would never progress in our abilities. We have to push our limits a little to expand our limits. I think the tough part is deciding when we are pushing our limit vs exceeding our limits. I think we learn most from the ones where we say "I could have done that."

When I was flying out of there for 20 years, I just considered it a normal airport. All a matter of perspective.

Something to remember.... takeoffs are ALWAYS optional. I'll be very interested in the NTSB report, but it sure looks like there were enough signs to make any prudent pilot stay on the ground in this case. Perhaps he had get-home-itis raging...who knows? I wonder what his WX brief revealed to him. I consider myself a cautious and prudent decision maker, but if a local pilot or airport manager recommended that I not launch at an unfamiliar and very challenging airport, I'd like to think that would be enough to make me stand down. Leaving Henderson field (Las Vegas) several years ago on an April afternoon, I got a very unwelcome surprise on my takeoff roll and was fortunate I didn't bend metal. Winds were strong and gusty (I think ~25G30 or 35) but mostly down the runway. That is fairly normal for my home base in KS, so I didn't think much of it as I have a lot of experience with those kinds of winds. A few seconds before my planned rotation, I got a HUGE gust that picked up a wing and weathervaned me while going into the wheelbarrow stance. Needless to say, I was shocked and managed to get the plane off of the runway and back under control (level, but crabbed), and stayed in ground effect until getting my airspeed safely above stall and then to climb speed. It happened so quickly I didn't really consciously think about what I did, but it worked out well enough that I didn't have a prop strike or even worse drag a wingtip. As I was climbing away, I heard a CIrrus that was behind me for takeoff ask the tower for a wind check, and the reply was 35 knots about 45 degrees to the runway (I don't remember the directions now) with peak gusts of 50 knots within the last minute. He wisely decided to sit tight and watch the windsock for a while to see if it was going to change again as I'm sure he saw my wild dance and thought he better not try the same thing. I wouldn't have even started the plane if the METAR showed what I ended up experiencing... We all need to keep in mind that takeoffs are always optional, unless your airfield is on fire and/or overrun with zombies and you have no other place to go...

You can visit Cuba from Jamaica , and they dont stamp american passports......I wouldnt even consider it...... I like my freedom , anything could happen to you over there and there would be NO recourse....

I am based at APA I take off at gross any time the family travels. I learned here. 5880' is normal for me. It is just a matter of perspective. My first flight to sealevel (CRQ) was the eye opener for me. Had to push the mixture knob in all the way to keep it running and boy did it land slow.

I'm in the same boat- learned to fly in a 172 in the Rockies based out of a field at 6000'. I now fly a M20J at a field in the Pacific Northwest at 4100' and fly often back into the Rockies. As the Red Baron wrote- it's not the crate, but the man in it that makes the difference. Risk mitigation is a large part of aviation. Some wont fly in the mountains without a turbo, but I see plenty of NA aircraft out there and fly my own there regularly. Others are perfectly happy flying low IFR in a single engine aircraft for extended periods- I don't count myself as one of them. As with everything- it's a matter of training, means, skill, luck and judgement. But to say that it's "suicide" (as some seem to thimk) to fly in the mountains in a NA aircraft is just as silly as saying its "suicide" to fly hard IFR in a single engine aircraft.... It is an addition risk, though, in both cases- one that can be mitigated with training, etc. (IMHO).

IMO, Denver is being built up to be more than it is getting into. I flew my pa-28-150 all over CO, because I obeyed the math. Id much prefer the numerous airports in the DEN area opposed to the high winds of the east CO plains, or the deceptively high and windy Cheyenne. Tons of flight instruction is happening on the front range at all times, take a course while youre there. This is of course coming from the East, and my perspective.

I cant visit my family in Cuba because its a communist country but i cant buy stuff from Walmart that isnt from Fing PR China. dont get me started. as to Chavez.. AMF.

I have to look at things a little differently. I bought my first Mooney in Denver and flew the first 2000 hours around the rockies. I didn't know any better, the performance I saw at Denver was normal performance, and of coures the performance would be degraded at high elevation airports like Telluride and Leadville, but that was to be expected. The real performance surprise was when I would fly to sea level airports and see the awsome amount of power the plane would make on takeoff. I never considered APA to be a high elevation airport after all it is on the flat lands.

My condolences to Sean Penn, Harry Belafonte, Susan Serandon, Fidel Castro, Danny Glover, Naomi Cambell, Joe Kennedy, Kevin Spacey, Oliver Stone, Benecio Del Toro, Dennis Kusinich, Cindy Sheehan, Tim Robbins and Jesse Jackson. This must be hard for you.

Well said Earl. I whole heartedly agree. I always try to be more diligent when my family or any passengers are onboard. Not to say that I do dangerous stuff when I am alone, but I will take a calculated risk when flying by myself......e.g. low ceilings, night flight, etc... but I absolutely will not put folks in the airplane under those conditions. I think that if you wouldn't be able to look your pax in the eyes and tell them that no matter what happens during this flight, I am prepared and able to meet that condition/emergency in order to have a safe outcome, then you shouldn't push that throttle forward. i think what gets my emotions going on this circumstance is that 3 unsuspecting folks were killed including a child. And like Aviatorweb said, I wish I could understand what led to the decision to "go". During my training I was always taught to respect "hills" and wind. My base airport is located right next to a ridge (KLBE) and any easterly wind, even a light wind, will make the ride until getting above the ridge somewhat interesting to say the least. Perhaps this individual was only used to flying around flat lands and never experienced or had knowledge of the effects of "hills" and wind? I know that I am not above making mistakes and errors in judgement and just hope to stay prudent in continuing to learn and understand aviating.

I have used TKS on planes that I had ferrried over the North Atlantic and here is my 2 cents on them. The system with all the hardware and fluid weights about 80 pounds. So you loose 80 pounds of useful load. Add another 20 pounds if you keep extra jugs in the baggage area and will total 100 pounds loss of usefull load and baggage space or about 17 gallons of AVGAS. Because most FBOs have no TKS or it is very expensive you have to carry extra jugs. TKS will reduce your cruising speed by 3 to 5 Kts TKS fluid endurance is about two hours. This has been my major concern. Keep in mind that to be effective the wing needs to covered with TKS before encountering icing conditions. I am always concern of running out of fluid for the windshield for my landing. Unlike de-icing boots that will clear a fully ice up wing upon activation, TKS will take for ever. To be effective TKS has to be on before encountering ice. It is more of a prevention system. I have seen one inch ice build up on my M20J (no TKS) and the worst I have noticed is about 10kts loss in speed but no altitude. If I wax the wing leading edge ice build up is minimum. The new hydrophobic waxes sounds promising. The best way to overcome icing is to avoid it. XM\WX provides the freezing levels so stay away from those. I would rather have a turbo than TKS. For $40,000 for TKS I would rather add a turbo and long range tanks and get more speed, higher ceiling (to avoid ice), faster climb rate and longer range. Some my argue about the above, your comments are welcome. José

I share similar sentiments. I think we all know pilots who we may question their decision making. Whether it be one who ignores maintenance, takes off in questionable weather or is over confident in their or their plane's abilities. And I have been personally told to f*&w off because I spoke up when I saw someone flying a home brewed instrument approach into our airport that didn't have an approach at that time. My obvious concern is being regulated. If we don't self regulate, we leave the door open for it. For years drinking and driving crashes were called "accidents" and you never heard anyone going to jail for killing someone with their car while drunk. Times change. If I am doing something unsafe as a pilot, I hope my pilot friends say something to me. My judgment is based on my experience and I for one don't have all the experience others have.

I wouldnt go as far as calling Verhalen an idiot, I think he simply misjudged the conditions and made the decision to go, which, in retrospect, didnt work out well. I hope others learn from this when the real accident report comes out, and that it serves a warning to all us others. By "amateur pilot" I wasnt trying to trash his reputation. Xftrpilot said it best, he was a professional engineer who enjoyed flying as a hobby. I just wish more of them would get annual recurrent training that pushes their comfort boundary and makes them handle more situations better.

No kidding. Wow. I am reticent to simply call the pilot an idiot and wash my hands of it and declare to myself that it is so different from anything I would never do that this guy is so different from me that I don't even need to worry about it. So calling him an idiot is in some sense perhaps distancing ourselves from him and telling ourselves it would never happen to us. Reading what you quoted from Bill Woodward suggests that at least most of the time he appeared as a careful and appropriately prudent pilot. Obviously he was not all of the time. There was a screw loose in his decision making process. But here is the part we must all take from Bill Woodwards comment - could the same be said about ME? Nonetheless did I ever make a decision that I regret but got away with it that time - or almost made a bad decision - even if we got away with it that time? So I assert that not calling him an idiot isn't just a matter of sugar coating in a culture of PC/not insulting people, but instead it is a mechanism to internalize the possibility that any of us has the potential to make an absolutely bad decision, as this guy did, and in admitting that, we affirm to ourselves that we vow not to make that decision. So I am calling it a psychological mechanism to empathize with him as a means to own it, to internalize his lesson to self affirm that we will not do it ourselves.

Couldn't agree more.....'stupid is as stupid does', this time with very tragic results. I read of many stupid pilots on Mooneyspace, and have had my share. This isn't the kind many most of us would ever make. I feel bad for John, but I'm also very disappointed in him. Don't kid yourself this crash reflects badly on all pilots, on GA, and on Mooney, not to mention our insurance rates. Personal accountability and responsibility ARE critical when flying, regardless of the current apologist fashion of never taking any.

Well here is my two cents, so feel free to blast away. First, my thoughts and prayers are with Mr. Verhalen Sr. He lost his son, his daughter and his grand-daughter. Secondly we are only as safe as our last decision. So we need to make sure our last decision is our best decision. We have tragically lost several from MooneySpace, in what appears to be a kink in the decision-making process. I am not going to speculate, but John was a second-generation Mooney pilot, and he worked for Mooney. So I really wouldn't feel comfortable calling him an amatuer. What matters, for us all, is that our last decision is the best decision we have ever made in the air, or before we head out in the airplane. I hope we all can learn from these tragedies and be safer pilots. God Speed John. You will be missed.

Nothing like an amateur pilot with a few hundred hours in a travelling airplane who kills his whole family. Happens 100 times per year. Since 1933....

Very stupid decision. I really wish our airplanes had in the ops limits a max crosswind for dry and wet conditions like all the military aircraft have. The whole max demonstrated really tells you nothing with regards to what the actual plane can do. I agree with we need to stop sugar coating stupid mistakes. If a student came to me and said he was going to takeoff with those sorts of winds he/she would be yelled at, chastised, and forced to give a brief to all the other students as to why his thought process is flawed. It's actions like this that make it easy for people to have a negative opinion of GA and that is unacceptable. What if because of his stupid actions he crashed into a car and killed another family. Actions like this impact us all. I feel bad for the passengers. Truly a tragic preventable loss of life. Oh and if anyone on here gets their feelings hurt.....look up and fill out a hurt feelings report......cause I don't care. Ray Kelly P.S. if I ever do something as stupid as this which results in a crash feel free to comment

Well summarized Scott. I am really suffering over this decision. I am leaning to doing just the 3 cylinders right now but I keep changing my mind. The die will be cast tomorrow. I bet I do just the 3. It would be nice to have all 6 done and clean and done to TBO so I would say, but I agree with the Busch philosophy and the principle of don't fix it if it ain't broke. Ughh.....