Practicing Stalls in Mooneys (Poll)

[scottfromiowa]

AND in another thread was chided for his making his base to final turn shallow with speed at 100mph...

If I stall in the pattern when I should not would not ever wish too, come piss on my arrogant grave...

[Alan Fox]

AND in another thread was chided for his making his base to final turn shallow with speed at 100mph...

If I stall in the pattern when I should not would not ever wish too, come piss on my arrogant grave...

Great attitude

[scottfromiowa]

Great attitude

NOPE

[Alan Fox]

Thanks for the P.M. Scott , disappointed you didn't share it with the rest of the class.....   Got a stick of Beemans?

[Alan Fox]

Hey Scott, like my new Avatar???   (now that's funny)

[scottfromiowa]

Keep 'em coming like to see what clever really looks like. Amazing stuff. See ya soon?

[carusoam]

At least Alan's V tail avatar is on hiatus...

-a-

[Alan Fox]

At least Alan's V tail avatar is on hiatus...

-a-

Its coming back!!!!

[Hank]

At least Alan's V tail avatar is on hiatus...

-a-

 

I have to wonder why he doesn't use his E?

[carusoam]

He probably uses it on the Bsite...

Wait til he brings back Scott's previous avatar, the famed euro flyer...

Best regards,

-a-

[scottfromiowa]

Erich Hartmann. JG52. 352 aerial victories. 10 years in Russian prison. Flew F-104's and F-86's in West German Air Force. Flew for his country with distinction. Only order he ever disregarded was to leave his unit behind and not to surrender where he would be turned over to Russians. Surrendered to US forces who turned him over to Russians. Never broken in captivity. Faced hunger strikes to improve camp conditions. Wife Ursula waited for him. Lost only son while in captivity. At end of biography said he was most proud of having never lost a wingman...

The ace of aces, the blonde knight, Bubi Hartmann

[johnggreen]

Back when the discussion of this thread was about stalling Mooneys, I said that I would address "deep stalls".  For those of you still interested in the subject, here it is.

 

Airplane wings stall when the angle of attack approaches 17 degrees.  Interestingly, that applies, for the most part, to all wings.  Some perhaps begin their stall at 16 degrees, perhaps some at 18, but it varies little in anything that I have ever read.  It is at this point that the airflow is disrupted to the point that it begins to degrade lift.  When you first feel the buffet of a stall, you are simply feeling the turbulence created from the airflow breaking up.  Instead of flowing over the wing, the airflow is striking the top of it.  As you enter a stall, i.e. 17 degrees of attack the wing begins to lose lift and if you don't decrease that AOA, the wing will finally "break".  The abruptness/severity of that break is determined by how far past 17 degrees your AOA has progressed.  If 18 or 19 degrees, the break will be fairly slow, smooth and easily controlled, at least on most GA airplanes.  If you have for any reason and by any means, pulled the wing far past 17 degrees  before the break, you are in a deep stall and the break will be much more abrupt.

 

A snap roll in an aerobatic airplane is done by abruptly pulling (or pushing) on the stick to "jerk" the wing into a deep stall.  At the same time, you push full rudder in the desired direction of the spin, and the airplane stalls and spins in that direction.  It can be done from level flight, inverted flight, going straight up or going straight down.

 

Another concept not usually understood about stalls it that speed is not a direct component or cause.  Don't believe that?  Then, consider this.  You are sitting on the runway ready to begin your takeoff roll.  Your wing is producing no lift.  Are you stalled?  No.  You being the takeoff roll in your M20C and at 30 knots the wing is definitely producing some life, not enough for flight but some lift.  Are you stalled? No.  At 70 you rotate and begin your climb.  Obviously the wing is not stalled, you have simply gotten enough speed and created enough angle of attack (of less than 17 degrees) to create more lift than the weight of your airplane.

 

OK, you are at cruise, indicating 140 mph.  You abruptly pull the airplane into an angle of attack of 20 degrees.  Will you keep flying? No.  But you have 140 mph of speed!  Yes, but you have exceeded the AOA at which the wing stalls.

 

Any maneuver in which you pull the wing far beyond 17 degrees will result in a deep stall from which the aircraft will easily enter into a spin.  Two scenarios where you can do this in your normal flight:  Pulling hard into a turn on final from a deep bank and with opposite rudder and when recovering from a stall too early, i.e. the secondary stall.

 

Third scenario, turbulence which is why you have a Va, maneuvering speed.

 

Jgreen

 

A concept not fully understood by some pilots is that AOA has nothing to do with your airplane's relative angle to mother earth.  An airplane will stall going straight up or straight down.

[aaronk25]

So is it possible for a mooney to stall and keep the controls full aft but keep the airplane from dropping a wing by using opposite rudder?

On mine I've kept ball dead centered and kept controls full aft until I feel a couple buffets then the it abrubtly breaks on LH wing until nose is coming through horizon and that's where I run out of balls.....full forward controls power on, I wonder what would happen if I kept the controls back and applied opposite rudder???

[TLSDriver]

How would you know the airplane was not rigged correctly without doing a stall?

 

 

David

[Alan Fox]

How would you know the airplane was not rigged correctly without doing a stall?

 

 

David

If it doesnt fly hands off , or slower than typical models , MSCs have the travel boards , My flaps were down 3.5 degrees , I set them 1 degree negative , it is a tad bit faster than it was....

[aviatoreb]

Erich Hartmann. JG52. 352 aerial victories. 10 years in Russian prison. Flew F-104's and F-86's in West German Air Force. Flew for his country with distinction. Only order he ever disregarded was to leave his unit behind and not to surrender where he would be turned over to Russians. Surrendered to US forces who turned him over to Russians. Never broken in captivity. Faced hunger strikes to improve camp conditions. Wife Ursula waited for him. Lost only son while in captivity. At end of biography said he was most proud of having never lost a wingman...

The ace of aces, the blonde knight, Bubi Hartmann

 

And he flew as a Nazi.

[jetdriven]

If it doesnt fly hands off , or slower than typical models , MSCs have the travel boards , My flaps were down 3.5 degrees , I set them 1 degree negative , it is a tad bit faster than it was....

Our fastest air race speed was with the flaps and ailerons at 1 degree down. Incidentally, I dont thing flaps and ailerons above zero do anything for you.

[Cruiser]

did you check the elevator position during level flight?

[jetdriven]

slightly down.  As always

[Dave Marten]

Airplane wings stall when the angle of attack approaches 17 degrees.  Interestingly, that applies, for the most part, to all wings.   

 

Jgreen,

 

While you've got the basic concepts of AOA correct. I have to correct one thing: ALL WINGS DO NOT STALL AT/NEAR 17 deg AOA.

 

Typical airfoils used in GA with cambered, straight-wing, no lift devices (flaps up) typically do reach max lift coefficient at 15-20 degrees AOA, BUT adding flaps, slats, other lift devices, sweeping the wings, strakes, blended wing designs, etc ALL effect the lift characteristics and maximum AOA attainable. Think jets: (F-16/18/22/35) some can push AOA past 40 degrees. Its a lot of FUN!

 

Dave

[scottfromiowa]

And he flew as a Nazi.

NOPE! Get your facts straight. Or don't misquote history my man...

Erich Hartmann was NOT A MEMBER OF THE NAZI PARTY. Nor we're the majority of soldat, kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe members. They served their country just like my dad did in the marines and I did as a light infantry officer.

Hate the leaders and politics, but to hate a soldier for serving and to slam all that served as nazi's is just wrong...

I suppose every soldier that fought for the south was a racist pre-klanner too?

[jetdriven]

Jgreen,

 

While you've got the basic concepts of AOA correct. I have to correct one thing: ALL WINGS DO NOT STALL AT/NEAR 17 deg AOA.

 

Typical airfoils used in GA with cambered, straight-wing, no lift devices (flaps up) typically do reach max lift coefficient at 15-20 degrees AOA, BUT adding flaps, slats, other lift devices, sweeping the wings, strakes, blended wing designs, etc ALL effect the lift characteristics and maximum AOA attainable. Think jets: (F-16/18/22/35) some can push AOA past 40 degrees. Its a lot of FUN!

 

Dave

 

But not without flight control computers.

[johnggreen]

Byron,

 

Come on man, I'm trying to explain the basics to guys trying not to stall their M20C on approach.  You have the knowledge and ability to significantly add to this discussion.  Help me out. 

 

jgreen

[Marauder]

201er -- the folks at PoA brought up a thread on spins. They have links to the spin work that was done and put out on YouTube. Here is one video -- check out what happens around 12 minutes. This is a Bonanza:

If you go into YouTube and search "Joe Brownlee Spins" you will find a few other GA spin tests.

[duke]

I regularly--every couple of months or so go up 5 or 6 k agl an practice basic air work, stall, incipient spins, slow flight etc in my 67F. Everything is very predictable and controllable. Non events really--basic stick and rudder. That being said, the F has the longer rudder which probably helps. The older short bodys have a shorter rudder which may change things.