Oil Loss, High Oil Temp .....

[funvee]

I really appreciate all the help and ideas everyone!  Keep 'em coming

 

Thanks!

Shawn

[N201MKTurbo]

I had a piston that was broken between the oil and second ring and it had that kind of oil consumption. I hate to say it, but I think you should pull all your cylinders. My bad cylinder had good compression.

[funvee]

I'll talk to my mx about it and see what he thinks.  I thought that would show up in a compression check but if not, it sure would be hard to spot that one.

 

 

Has anyone here done the SB M20-182?  If so, how much does the kit cost and where do you buy it?  M20-182-1 is the kit number I see.

[Marauder]

I have a 1975 F with the same oil cooler configuration (up front, next to the ram inlet). I never see oil temps anywhere near what you are seeing. I flew for years in upstate New York in very cold weather and never had a problem keeping the temps in the normal range. Getting the needle off of the peg while on the ground in very cold weather was a challenge though. Once airborne, temps would always be in the normal range regardless of flight configuration (climbing, descending or level).

As for oil consumption, if I start out with 7 (8 qt being the max), I will see most of that go quickly out the breather and end up on the belly (within a couple of hours). Once around 6, I will go 8 to 9 hours before needing to add a quart.

You have a strange problem and I wish I could find a logical suggestion other than what others have offered already. So, how about for an illogical one. Your oil temp bothers me. If the cooler and therm valve have been replaced and assuming they are good, have you done anything with the lines? Also, can't remember for sure but is there a flow direction on your oil cooler and if there is, is it connected correctly?

Here is a picture on 45 degree F day in a climb:

[funvee]

I have a 1975 F with the same oil cooler configuration (up front, next to the ram inlet). I never see oil temps anywhere near what you are seeing. I flew for years in upstate New York in very cold weather and never had a problem keeping the temps in the normal range. Getting the needle off of the peg while on the ground in very cold weather was a challenge though. Once airborne, temps would always be in the normal range regardless of flight configuration (climbing, descending or level).

As for oil consumption, if I start out with 7 (8 qt being the max), I will see most of that go quickly out the breather and end up on the belly (within a couple of hours). Once around 6, I will go 8 to 9 hours before needing to add a quart.

You have a strange problem and I wish I could find a logical suggestion other than what others have offered already. So, how about for an illogical one. Your oil temp bothers me. If the cooler and therm valve have been replaced and assuming they are good, have you done anything with the lines? Also, can't remember for sure but is there a flow direction on your oil cooler and if there is, is it connected correctly?

Here is a picture on 45 degree F day in a climb:

If I start out at 7, I loose that first qt pretty quick too.  I have been using 6qt as a start for all our tests lately because of that.

 

I am starting to wonder about the new vernatherm and my cooler and my hoses....  Just because it was a new VT, I don't know that we can be sure that it is actually working properly.

Also, on my cooler, just because the mx that did the first annual on it sent the cooler out to get redone, doesn't mean it is the correct one.  On the side of it it says it is an 8432L.  I can't find that L model anywhere in reference to a Mooney so I don't know if that is ok or if that is incorrect.  I see the 8432R and S listed for the M20F but I don't know the difference between the L, R and S.  I'll ask my mx later but if anyone here know's that would be cool

 

I'm not sure if there is a flow direction on the cooler but both connections are at the bottom so that made me think back to the vapour lock idea that someone mentioned.

 

The hoses to/from the cooler look old and they seemed to be covered in oil after flying so I am also wondering about their health.  We did blow through them to see how they flow but air is obviously easier to blow than oil.  If I do the oil relocation, that will come with new hoses so it would take that out of the equation.  

 

Thanks!

[funvee]

Here is a picture on 45 degree F day in a climb:

I would LOVE those numbers!  Nice solid pressure and comfortable temperature!  

[Marauder]

We both have IO360 engines. Let me take a look at mine today and post some information about mine.

I would be concerned if I am seeing oil on the hoses themselves.

[jlunseth]

Alright, it appears you have clean oil loss on the belly.  The inside bottom of the cowling will tell you if it is coming from the engine. 

 

One thing I would do, and do immediately, is check the quick drain.  Especially if this started to happen after an oil change.  Pieces of debris such as plastic from an oil cap can pass into the quick drain and block it from fully sealing.  It may not leak on the ground or may leak a little, but when you run the engine, which pressurizes the crankcase, you can blow out a quart an hour or better.  It will be clean and all over the belly.  Or the seal on the quick drain may have gotten old.  Have your mechanic pull the quick drain and dissasemble it, and it is not a bad idea to do an oil change at the same time, expressly instructing your mechanic to let the oil drain out of the crankcase hole with the quick drain completely off.  This allows debris that is too large to pass through the quick drain, to vacate the premises through the crankcase hole. 

 

A plugged air/oil separator (due to freezing usually) will block the passage to the breather and will cause oil to vent through any available orifice in the engine, you never know where it might come from.  It can blow out a crankcase seal which will vent clean oil

[funvee]

Alright, it appears you have clean oil loss on the belly. The inside bottom of the cowling will tell you if it is coming from the engine.

One thing I would do, and do immediately, is check the quick drain. Especially if this started to happen after an oil change. Pieces of debris such as plastic from an oil cap can pass into the quick drain and block it from fully sealing. It may not leak on the ground or may leak a little, but when you run the engine, which pressurizes the crankcase, you can blow out a quart an hour or better. It will be clean and all over the belly. Or the seal on the quick drain may have gotten old. Have your mechanic pull the quick drain and dissasemble it, and it is not a bad idea to do an oil change at the same time, expressly instructing your mechanic to let the oil drain out of the crankcase hole with the quick drain completely off. This allows debris that is too large to pass through the quick drain, to vacate the premises through the crankcase hole.

A plugged air/oil separator (due to freezing usually) will block the passage to the breather and will cause oil to vent through any available orifice in the engine, you never know where it might come from. It can blow out a crankcase seal which will vent clean oil

This one has totally slipped through without notice... Never even thought of it! I'm going to get it looked at ASAP.

I don't have an oil seperator so I shouldn't be building pressure due to a blockage there.

I just discussed it with mx and we agreed I would try the condom trick over the quick drain to see if its letting oil out.

[jetdriven]

My 231 doesn't have a Lycoming, but at one time I had a serious oil loss problem. It turned out to be a bad front crank seal, allowing the crankcase to be pressurized, blowing the oil out the breather.

Out there on the Web there is a procedure for taking a spare oil filler cap and tapping it with a nipple to hook to an airspeed indicator. Continental SB M89-9.   Then you go do a full power runup and the Airspeed should not exceed 80 MPH.  All an ASI is, is a very finely calibrated air pressure gauge.

[funvee]

Out there on the Web there is a procedure for taking a spare oil filler cap and tapping it with a nipple to hook to an airspeed indicator. Continental SB M89-9.   Then you go do a full power runup and the Airspeed should not exceed 80 MPH.  All an ASI is, is a very finely calibrated air pressure gauge.

Cool trick. So is 80mph equivalent to a specific psi? I was wondering what pressure the relief valve should be opening at if it is working correct. I'm pretty sure I've never seen higher that 85 or 90 on my OIl pressure gauge.

[jetdriven]

You hook the ASI up to a dummy oil filler cap. Then it measures crankcase pressure. Anything over 75-100 MPH on the gauge is excessive.

[funvee]

I don't know if anyone might be interested in a PDF on oil overheating issues but this one is kinda cool (pardon the pun).

http://www.yeeles.com/Reference/Hi-Temps.pdf

The part that I have a question about is the page 5 tips about air in the cooler blocking the flow...

Does anyone have an easy way to get the oil cooler and lines filled with oil? Taking the cooler off and filling with oil is fine for the cooler but when you reconnect the hoses (assuming all the oil leaked down out of them), they just refill the cooler with air again no?

[MB65E]

Hi Shawn, you could "prime" the cooler by taking off either hose from the back of the accessory case. I've never heard of this. Oil usually flows where it wants to. Your lines are cause for concern if they are more than 10years old and the cloth type. I would not expect the relocation of the oil cooler to fix your problem, funds should be used to fix the issue, not mask it. The air oil seperator wont fix the temp issue. I have in the past made fittings to be able to run the engine with out the cooler installed. (ie oil cooler removed for OH but still needed to run engine for ground runs only). However your test of putting tape over the cooler in flight confirmed that the cooler is working. Don't know what else to tell you except that you may need to pull a few cylinders to see what's really going on. These lycomings tend to have great compressions with major issues looming. Ours was 78/80 on all 4, but all the cylinders we shot for other reasons. Do you have chrome cylinders orange markings? I can't remember. My guess is the oil is being burned out the exhaust during combustion thru the rings and valve guides.

Hope this helps. :-/

[jlunseth]

Maybe, but my thought is that if the oil were burning out through the exhaust there would be dirty oil/grime on the belly rather than clean oil.  Clean oil says leak. 

[funvee]

Hi Shawn, you could "prime" the cooler by taking off either hose from the back of the accessory case. I've never heard of this. Oil usually flows where it wants to. Your lines are cause for concern if they are more than 10years old and the cloth type. I would not expect the relocation of the oil cooler to fix your problem, funds should be used to fix the issue, not mask it. The air oil seperator wont fix the temp issue. I have in the past made fittings to be able to run the engine with out the cooler installed. (ie oil cooler removed for OH but still needed to run engine for ground runs only). However your test of putting tape over the cooler in flight confirmed that the cooler is working. Don't know what else to tell you except that you may need to pull a few cylinders to see what's really going on. These lycomings tend to have great compressions with major issues looming. Ours was 78/80 on all 4, but all the cylinders we shot for other reasons. Do you have chrome cylinders orange markings? I can't remember. My guess is the oil is being burned out the exhaust during combustion thru the rings and valve guides.

Hope this helps. :-/

I just purchased the relocation kit but I didn't do it to hide the problem... I did it because it comes with two brand new hoses to replace these old fabric ones, and the cooler in that configuration is sideways so apparently there is very little chance of an air lock issue.  I am still trying to find my oil loss issue but I thought this would be a sound investment in my sanity.  

 

I have nitrite cylinders.

[funvee]

Maybe, but my thought is that if the oil were burning out through the exhaust there would be dirty oil/grime on the belly rather than clean oil.  Clean oil says leak. 

yes, my belly looks like it was in a canola oil wrestling pit... (if there is such a thing).   Clean as a whistle but yet still dirty as can be.   (no, or very little black oil or carbon down there)

 

The piper I used to park beside has a black belly and yet he only burns 1qt / 3-4 hrs.  

[funvee]

Here is my temporary catcher that I will try on my breather tube to see what is coming out.  I am changing the zip tie to a band clamp.

 

it has aluminum tape covering it for heat now but this is the last pic i have.

 

 

 

 

[N601RX]

I don't think you have said, but I assume your engine has a screw on oil filter?  It might worth removing the oil filter adapter and looking the insides of it over good. There could be a problem with the Vernatherm seat in the adaptor or perhaps someone installed the incorrect gasket between the accessory case and oil filter adapter allowing some of the oil to bypass the cooler.  A engine gasket kit comes with several different gaskets and it is up to the mechanic to use the correct one for the engine setup.   Also make sure your oil cooler is plumbed into the correct ports on the back of the engine.

 

There is also a spec on how for the Vernatherm opens at different temps when placed in hot water.

[funvee]

I don't think you have said, but I assume your engine has a screw on oil filter?  It might worth removing the oil filter adapter and looking the insides of it over good. There could be a problem with the Vernatherm seat in the adaptor or perhaps someone installed the incorrect gasket between the accessory case and oil filter adapter allowing some of the oil to bypass the cooler.  A engine gasket kit comes with several different gaskets and it is up to the mechanic to use the correct one for the engine setup.   Also make sure your oil cooler is plumbed into the correct ports on the back of the engine.

 

There is also a spec on how for the Vernatherm opens at different temps when placed in hot water.

I have a screw on filter, yes.

We removed that complete oil filter adapter and gasket.  We also verified that the seat where the vernatherm contacts looks good with no ridge.

 

Now, having said that, you bring up a good point... We put it all back together with the gasket and hoses just as it was before but I never asked my mx if it was correct or if we where just putting it back that way because that was how it came off.  hmmmmm  makes me wonder.

 

If anyone has a picture of the correct layout for the gasket and the hose connections, I would love to see them.

 

We also checked the new vernatherm to verify that it opened when heated but I don't know if he did specific temp testing or just did the boiling water thing and had it open fully.

[funvee]

Earlier I posted that I had my questions about whether the 8432L was a correct cooler for the F.  The people down at Aero Classic confirmed that the L was just an older model.

 

He also sent me the layouts for the 2 coolers that their site lists as appropriate for the F.

 

I'll attach them in case anyone else has an interest.  

 

 

80001694Print.pdf

8001689 Rev A.pdf

[N601RX]

The superior IO 360 overhaul manual has a good diagram documenting the oil flow. Google it and you will find a link to it.  The Vernatherm has to be completely closed and sealed off to force oil through the cooler.

 

 

[carusoam]

Where do cracks in the block usually occur? Talking about this will get it out of the way early, and back onto the old hoses and oil drain...

Don't forget to check the oil return lines on each cylinder...

Good luck,

-a-

[N201MKTurbo]

Everybody is talking about the high oil temps, but what about the 1 QT/ Hour oil consumption? That is the real problem.

[duke]

I agree--look for oil loss first, keeping in mind that if oil cooler hoses are seeping or have a pinhole it is hard to find as it is only when oil is hot and veratherm is routing oil to cooler that there is any pressure in them. probably hard to get to that point on ground run up.

do the relocation mod, it is a good one. For your own interest cap one end of removed hoses, attatch air fitting to other end and hook to air hose. Immerse in pail of water and check for bubbles.