Does a Mooney outclimb its own glide?

[201er]

Never really tried, so not sure. If you take off on a runway climbing straight out and get above the minimum safe altitude to turn around (to rule out dangerous maneuvers), will a Mooney make it back to the runway? Is this the case for all models or only certain ones?

 

What is the sink rate of a Mooney in glide? How much altitude is lost performing a dead stick 180? How much more altitude do you have to have to be able to safely extend gear and flaps in time? So what is the minimum altitude to be able to do a 180 and land back on the departing runway?

[marks]

If there's no wind and at gross weight I believe it's impossible for any Mooney to make it back to the runway. On the other hand, if you take off from a 10,000 ft. runway in the first 1,200 ft. then turn around, it may be possible to make it back because the runway stretched for an additional 1.75 miles under you while you were climbing. So all in all, it depends on the weight, the amount of headwind on takeoff, the density altitude, and the length of the runway. Don't try it on a windless hot day from a high altitude airport with a full cabin.

[DC_Mooniac]

I am sure others can explain this better than me, but weight does not affect glide distance, assuming you adjust your best glide speed appropriately.  At gross weight, you will land sooner than if you were lighter, but the glide distance should be the same.

[1964-M20E]

AOPA has some stories "the impossible turn" and articles about this and I think one guy was in a Mooney and he did make it back. I belive in one article AOPA suggested going out to a safe area and altitude and simulate an engine out just after takeoff and try the impossible turn with a given safe altitude as the hard deck. It is one manuver we are told not to do in our PPL training but I think is rarely demonstrated to the student or to the veteran pilot. 1. you get to see how the plane handles 2. you get to go below the hard deck and not have anythning bad happen. 3. the suggestion is when you start your turn to turn into the wind as well. 4. the turn is more like 270 degrees to get ligned up with the runway uless you are at a large airport and there is plenty of clear space that you can set down on. here are some links to AOPAs impossible turn articles http://www.aopa.org/training/articles/2011/110519impossible_turn_practice.html http://www.aopa.org/aopalive/?watch=lyOHVoMjr2oVEH1Ipz6TLpnTSBQ8LWRR http://flash.aopa.org/asf/pilotstories/impossibleturn/

[aviatoreb]

  On 1/8/2013 at 11:59 AM, 1964-M20E said:

AOPA has some stories "the impossible turn" and articles about this and I think one guy was in a Mooney and he did make it back. I belive in one article AOPA suggested going out to a safe area and altitude and simulate an engine out just after takeoff and try the impossible turn with a given safe altitude as the hard deck. It is one manuver we are told not to do in our PPL training but I think is rarely demonstrated to the student or to the veteran pilot. 1. you get to see how the plane handles 2. you get to go below the hard deck and not have anythning bad happen. 3. the suggestion is when you start your turn to turn into the wind as well. 4. the turn is more like 270 degrees to get ligned up with the runway uless you are at a large airport and there is plenty of clear space that you can set down on. here are some links to AOPAs impossible turn articles http://www.aopa.org/training/articles/2011/110519impossible_turn_practice.html http://www.aopa.org/aopalive/?watch=lyOHVoMjr2oVEH1Ipz6TLpnTSBQ8LWRR http://flash.aopa.org/asf/pilotstories/impossibleturn/

 

I would be very very careful going out and practicing the impossible turn even at altitude.  Getting to energetic (and steep turn and slow) practicing an impossible turn might cause you to loose your attention and coordination and cause a spin.  With that in mind it might be okay if you remember to stay coordinated.  Actually, that is always good advice when turning, esp in the pattern.  Coordinated.  Just my knee jerk to seeing this comment and worry about all my friends.  Thanks for your patience.

[1964-M20E]

  On 1/8/2013 at 12:57 PM, aviatoreb said:

I would be very very careful going out and practicing the impossible turn even at altitude.  Getting to energetic (and steep turn and slow) practicing an impossible turn might cause you to loose your attention and coordination and cause a spin.  With that in mind it might be okay if you remember to stay coordinated.  Actually, that is always good advice when turning, esp in the pattern.  Coordinated.  Just my knee jerk to seeing this comment and worry about all my friends.  Thanks for your patience.

Noted but that is why you perform the maneuver at a safe altitude and that is why it is called training or practice. We need to respect the capabilities of our planes but we also need to know their limits so as not to exceed them. One of the reasons to practice the impossible turn is to see just how much altitude you really loose making the turn. I’ve done it and I would loose about 700 to 800 feet. This tells me that if I’m below that altitude do not try to reverse course 180 degrees if it is a real situation and look for alternates ahead of me or within 90 degrees left or right.

[fantom]

Make certain you know spin recovery procedure (PARE) before you go practicing engine out recovery procedures. Most Mooney pilots need 1,000 ft. AGL before even thinking of trying an impossible turn, even as that is usually the first thing that usually comes to mind.

 

  On 1/8/2013 at 11:59 AM, 1964-M20E said:

.....going out to a safe area and altitude and simulate an engine out just after takeoff and try the impossible turn with a given safe altitude as the hard deck..

[aviatoreb]

  On 1/8/2013 at 1:20 PM, 1964-M20E said:

Noted but that is why you perform the maneuver at a safe altitude and that is why it is called training or practice. We need to respect the capabilities of our planes but we also need to know their limits so as not to exceed them. One of the reasons to practice the impossible turn is to see just how much altitude you really loose making the turn. I’ve done it and I would loose about 700 to 800 feet. This tells me that if I’m below that altitude do not try to reverse course 180 degrees if it is a real situation and look for alternates ahead of me or within 90 degrees left or right.

 

I agree completely.  Completely.

 

I was just reminding that this maneuver may be steep and slow so it is especially important to remember coordination.

[AndyFromCB]

Here is the math, according to my tests

 

-my Bravo climbs at about 1100 feet per minute close to sea level at full power at Vx of 85, down to about 700 feet per minute at DA closer to 10,000.

 

-my Bravo sinks at about 450 feet per minute at 85 knots with gear and flaps up at gross. I was really surprised when I first got 767RD how much of a glider it was vs my arrow. It took me some getting used to, to say the least.

 

So yes, it does out climb it's minimum sink vertical speed, as I suspect most Mooneys do, but the Bravos, Ovations and Acclaims really excel at it.

 

As to my minimum safe altitude for a 360 back to the runway, according to my tests done at altitude, 700 feet seems to be my magical number when I can give myself 5 seconds to realize the engine quit, accelerate back to 85knots from about 65knots, yes you do loose almost 20knots in the 5 seconds, do a fast sinking turn at a bank of 45 degrees and level off. It does require a 45 degree bank, so one must do the "unnatural" and let the plane sink first to accelerate back to 85knots. I think that's what gets most pilots. I talk to myself a lot before each take off.

 

If one was ultra quick on their feet, 500 feet would do, but I'm not that quick, so for me, 700 feet is the magical number for a 180 (well, a 270) at my home field. Other bigger fields, give you more options with multiple runways and taxi ways perpendicular to the runway. 

 

At KCBF it would suicide to try landing straight ahead of either 18 or 36, so a quick left 90 degree turn is in order if one was to lose power at lower altitude, let's say 300 to 400 feet.

[fantom]

  On 1/8/2013 at 1:49 PM, astelmaszek said:

.....accelerate back to 85knots from about 65knots, yes you do loose almost 20knots in the 5 seconds, do a fast sinking turn at a bank of 45 degrees and level off.

 

If one was ultra quick on their feet, 500 feet would do, but I'm not that quick, so for me, 700 feet is the magical number for a 180 (well, a 270) at my home field. Other bigger fields, give you more options with multiple runways and taxi ways perpendicular to the runway. 

 

At KCBF it would suicide to try landing straight ahead of either 18 or 36, so a quick left 90 degree turn is in order if one was to lose power at lower altitude, let's say 300 to 400 feet.

 

Absolutely critical....

 

Push that yoke in immediately!! Stalls at 700 feet AGL are deadly!!!!

[N601RX]

  On 1/8/2013 at 4:00 AM, 201er said:

Never really tried, so not sure. If you take off on a runway climbing straight out and get above the minimum safe altitude to turn around (to rule out dangerous maneuvers), will a Mooney make it back to the runway? Is this the case for all models or only certain ones?

 

What is the sink rate of a Mooney in glide? How much altitude is lost performing a dead stick 180? How much more altitude do you have to have to be able to safely extend gear and flaps in time? So what is the minimum altitude to be able to do a 180 and land back on the departing runway?

The glide ratio is about 12.7:1 so at 1000ft of altitude you can glide 12,700 ft or 2.4 miles.  How high will your plane climb in 2.4 miles?

[Marauder]

  On 1/8/2013 at 1:21 PM, fantom said:

Make certain you know spin recovery procedure (PARE) before you go practicing engine out recovery procedures. Most Mooney pilots need 1,000 ft. AGL before even thinking of trying an impossible turn, even as that is usually the first thing that usually comes to mind.

.....going out to a safe area and altitude and simulate an engine out just after takeoff and try the impossible turn with a given safe altitude as the hard deck..

I experienced a Mooney spin first hand during my complex checkout. The young CFI who was giving me my obligatory 10 hours of "complex" time was trying to demonstrate a power-on stall. He was very uncoordinated and it came back to bite us. I was really surprised how fast it developed.

My most vivid memory of the incident was the ashen appearance of the CFI after we recovered. I developed a healthy respect for coordinated maneuvers from that experience.

[robert7467]

We did a complete 180 and lost only 300 feet, so it is possible.

[AndyFromCB]

  On 1/8/2013 at 1:55 PM, fantom said:

Absolutely critical....

 

Push that yoke in immediately!! Stalls at 700 feet AGL are deadly!!!!

 

Fantom,

 

My tests were not done at 700 feet, they were done at 4500. However, according to a study I read, it takes an average pilot 4 seconds to realize they lost an engine. Being I consider myself less than average, I give myself 5 seconds, hence 700 feet being my requirement for a 180. You end up loosing about 200 feet accelerating back to 85knots and it must be beaten in a pilot's brain that no turn takes place until 85knots has been reached.

 

Andy

[Rwsavory]

Learned at my last BFR:  Just before departure, brief yourself on the minimum safe altitude to turn back after engine failure.  Anything under that number and you land "within the windshield," that is within about 45 degrees of runway heading.  Currently, the altitude I use is 1,000 agl.  To make it back to the runway, you have to turn more than 180 degrees, really about 270.  And then there is the delayed response to power loss.  

[201er]

Remember guys, I'm not only asking about the impossible turn. I'm also asking if you take off and climb straight out to 2000ft or 4000ft and proceed on course, with no other places to land can you make it back to the airport? What about if you departed, turned crosswind and then went on your way?

 

And let's say at full power climb you have a lot of options for return, but what about if you climb "25 squared"? Are you still out climbing your glide and giving yourself the chance to come back? If you climb full power to 1000ft and then bring the power back for the remainder of the climb, will that climb angle still exceed glide?

[AndyFromCB]

  On 1/8/2013 at 2:33 PM, 201er said:

Remember guys, I'm not only asking about the impossible turn. I'm also asking if you take off and climb straight out to 2000ft or 4000ft and proceed on course, with no other places to land can you make it back to the airport? What about if you departed, turned crosswind and then went on your way?

 

And let's say at full power climb you have a lot of options for return, but what about if you climb "25 squared"? Are you still out climbing your glide and giving yourself the chance to come back? If you climb full power to 1000ft and then bring the power back for the remainder of the climb, will that climb angle still exceed glide?

 

This is why I never understand peeps who climb at anything else than full power. I almost have to hit certain CFIs when they reach over for the throttle at 500 feet. Leave the damn thing alone until about 3000 feet AGL. Leave it alone. For me it's always Vx to 1000, Vy to 3000, then cruise climb at 34/2400 at 120knots. Unless I'm in the mountains, then a lot of times it's full power until 16,000 feet like when departing KJAC or KLAR.

[Hank]

I climb WOT/2700 to altitude, unless I'm staying in the pattern, then I reduce to ~16" on the crosswind leg to not blow through Pattern Altitude. I hold Vx to clear the trees, then accelerate to Vy and stay pretty close to that all the way up. Level off, accelerate then set whatever I'm going to use for cruise.

 

Sure, the book lists a reduced setting for cruise climb, and I use that when I or ATC want higher, but I'm usually high enough that I can't produce the 26" MP book setting, just Full Forward and ~115 mph. So far I've not needed any emergency evasions . . .

[201er]

  On 1/8/2013 at 2:38 PM, astelmaszek said:

This is why I never understand peeps who climb at anything else than full power. I almost have to hit certain CFIs when they reach over for the throttle at 500 feet. Leave the damn thing alone until about 3000 feet AGL. Leave it alone. For me it's always Vx to 1000, Vy to 3000, then cruise climb at 34/2400 at 120knots. Unless I'm in the mountains, then a lot of times it's full power until 16,000 feet like when departing KJAC or KLAR.

Vx increases risk of stall and we know stalls take more lives than quit engines.... just sayin.

[jetdriven]

I usually go for 115 KIAS right after takeoff..  However, if there are bad choices for landing sites right after takeoff, night, or IFR, I use Vy to at least 1000'.

[jetdriven]

  On 1/8/2013 at 3:08 PM, 201er said:

Vx increases risk of stall and we know stalls take more lives than quit engines.... just sayin.

Next time you go do airwork, climb at Vx and then pull the mixture.  You have to unload the airplane quite a bit to prevent a stall.  Not that Vx is a bad place ot be, but you have to react quickly if you have an engine failure there.

[Seth]

There was an old Mooney salesman I randomly met once while on vacation in Texas who sold C, E, and F models in the 1960s and 1970s.  He loved demonstrating the Mooney glide ratio by climbing away from an airport, getting to a certain altitude, cutting the engine, turning back, and having plenty of altitude over the airport. 

 

Of course, thinking about it, he probably climbed into the wind, cut the engine around 4000 to 6000 and then did his 180.  He did mention how impressed the prospective buyers were when they would return over the airport with plenty of altitude to enter the pattern and land.  So according to him, the Mooney does indeed outglide it's climb. 

 

Airport altitude, temperature, engine power, and other factors have to be considered however and I'm sure there are instances where it does not outglide it's climb.

 

-Seth

[AndyFromCB]

  On 1/8/2013 at 3:09 PM, jetdriven said:

Next time you go do airwork, climb at Vx and then pull the mixture.  You have to unload the airplane quite a bit to prevent a stall.  Not that Vx is a bad place ot be, but you have to react quickly if you have an engine failure there.

 

Byron,

 

Bet you a beer you're wrong ;-) Next time you're up at a decent altitude, drop the gear, slow down to 66knots speed, give it full power, trim for 85knots, take your hands of the controls and pull the mixture. You'll be very surprised what happens:

 

-the plane will instantly slow down about 15 knots in 3 seconds, roll to the right and then nose back down to about 100knots because of the loss of elevator effectiveness due to loss of airstream over a propeller and just stay there. That's exactly what my Bravo does. 

 

Andy

[WardHolbrook]

  On 1/8/2013 at 9:09 AM, DC_Mooniac said:

I am sure others can explain this better than me, but weight does not affect glide distance, assuming you adjust your best glide speed appropriately.  At gross weight, you will land sooner than if you were lighter, but the glide distance should be the same.

Correct. The L/D remains the same - it is a constant for any given configuration. The speed at which the L/D is achieved varies according to the weight - the more you weigh, the faster you have to go to achieve it. That is the reason sailplane pilots carry water ballast - it allows them to fly faster and farther when they are searching for thermals in good conditions, yet be able to dump the ballast when conditions start to deteriorate. 

[WardHolbrook]

The "impossible" turn is always more than 180 degrees and it's always at least two turns. The problem isn't that it can't be done - it certainly can. The problem is being able to recognize when you are "in the window" where you can do it. That's the point where, after the "oh, s#!t" startle factor" is over, you can start to execute the turn. Are you in a place (altitude, distance from runway, etc.) where it is even possible? The problem most pilots have is that they simply have no idea where that window is and how dramatically it can change from flight to flight so they end up guessing or coming up with some arbitrary number like 300' AGL or 1000' AGL or whatever. Without that understanding and the discipline to apply it, it's a crapshoot. Some guys are lucky, some aren't. Even when you know where the window is, doesn't mean that you'll be in it when the engine calls it a day. For many of us, the safest advice is to limit your turns to 45 degrees or so of runway heading and fly the airplane until it stops moving.