GeorgePerry Posted February 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 Good help is hard to find.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooneyland Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 George; I have just subscribed and I read your post and I have to take exception to the ineference that Mooneyland's location fees are exhorbitant, or so you "heard". I'm not sure what your gripe is with my company, but in the interest of accuracy in postings; especially when it concerns our wonderful reputation from most who have used our services; there is no "fee" charged to the buyer; ever! We exhaust our search for our location customers and use every conceivable asset to help assure that the airplane of choice or suggestion to take the next step with and by that time, I am pretty sure what we will find once we decide to spend money on the inspection of which we help find a local Mooney experienced mechanic by calling my customers in that sector for a recommendation. It doesn't even go to the mechanic until I have had a chance to speak with the seller as well as his mechanic in order to satisfy me that they know what they're doing and are honest. Once that mechanic is decided upon by the buyer, we give him a list of items to check first depending on make and model; that way we have not spent a lot of money only to find out that there is something such as corrosion that is a deal killer and stop the inspection in its tracks. Once the buyer decides that this is the plane for him or her; we run title searches and I often find lien's on airplanes dating back to the as far as the sixties! It is Mooneyland that does the needed sleuth work to get that lean removed and never at a charge to the seller nor the buyer. After the purchase with an assured clean title, serious work begins because the new Mooney owner has used Mooneyland and has the expectations that his eventual and many questions will be replied to as often as he can ask them, and that is for the life of his ownership. Not only that, but I know where to find stuff for the bird and at a fraction of the cost at times that he may have paid otherwise. My customers have enjoyed the option of a source I know to overhaul the IO-360 to new tolerances for around $10K with warranty. I have gotten my customers a 530 Garmin installed for around 8K. When they have a real problem with the bird, I send them to my honest Mooney guy who charges me $40.00 an hour and they always get my cost. I personally fly with them to ensure they get the most our of their Mooney and how to safely operate it. I have spent up to six days with some customers that did not take well to the Mooney transition or they were lacking in flying abilities, and I NEVER charge for that time that I spend with them. We go to the inth degree for our customers and while we may not please everyone; our pleased percentage is well into the 90% range and I think that is an accomplishment in a volitile business such as used aircraft sales. Mooneyland does all that and more, and the high "fee" you infur comes from the seller, not the buyer and it is rarely "high". The seller recognizes who we are and that we are providing him a buyer and a phone number other than his after the sale and more; and that makes him more willing to discount his airplane to include a commission for us which keeps our doors open. On average, not a lot of money is made for location services; it is more of a service to establish a new Mooneyland customer who nearly always comes back to upgrade or sell. We have hundreds of very happy customers and that is what has kept us in business for 20 years without having to advertise the company. We spend countless hours designing and writing Mooney related articles at Mooneyland and we have never charged for that. Although I don't want to encourage it, we answer questions daily from Mooney types that need or want advice and are not customers. We have done more to keep the Mooney community infomed for free than anyone. (by the way, for those who have thought it was difficult to navigate through my site; click on the "Master Navigation" page to get around. http://www.mooneyland.com/master_navigation_page.htm. There is lots to learn for many.) So I've just gotta ask: can a prospective first time Mooney buyer afford not to use our Location Service? Please don't compare us to Coy Jacobs or any other Mooney specialty company because none of them are anything like Mooneyland. I'm sure we'll hear what your gripe is, but all I ask is that you are more accurate than you were with your statement about Mooneyland. Thank you. Richard Zephro www.mooneyland.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgePerry Posted March 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 Great...I'm glad to hear your giving your customers value. According to the BBB you could do better. We spoke over the phone a long time ago and I was not impressed nor persuaded by your sales pitch. Anyone with internet access and the willingness to learn can find a good plane without the added expense (I won't debate how much qualifies as ridiculous) of using a "locator or broker" I'm sure your a smart well meaning guy...but to infer that an uninitiated aircraft buyer can't do it them selves, without risking subsequent unforeseen / insurmountable expenses is just not true. http://centraltx.bbb.org/WWWRoot/Report.aspx?site=40&bbb=0825&firm=90019688 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooneyland Posted March 7, 2009 Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 I have never said that an individual could not locate himself an airplane George. We are here to help those who feel intimidated by dealing with the public and plenty of people get screwed by the public with neither them nor their choice of mechanics at times even know what to look for. Our service utilizes professional and methodical means and experience to help insure that both the seller and buyer are happy with the result and most are; infactically, and we do everything to help insure that the airplane is not a money pit or dangerous. Most sellers will give in a bit more to an experienced dealer simply by the work and aggrivation that is saved. I am certain that should you ask my actual customers, you will get a different result than the BBB has shown. FYI, neither of those complaints were from people who were actually my customers and bought something. I tried to explain to the BBB that neither complaint had either customer spend a single dime with my company, so those are bogus. Even if not bogus, these are used airplanes we're dealing with and our pleased customer rate is huge, but I personally believe that the complaintants were plants by a competitor anyway. Again, neither complaintant made a purchase! Besides; only 2 complaints in 20 years of dealing in used aircraft? Get real. We still have a B rating which is above average for businesses. Not everyone has your confidence when purchasing and the intelligent people who know their limitations so they hire a professional with more Mooney experience than they will ever have themselves. On their own, they know that my tech support, cost of purchases, advice, etc. will not be available to them. As for you not being impressed with our phone call, well; you weren't that impressive either picking my brain then off on your own; so what? We have hundreds of customers who are loyal repeat customers because they know that they are dealt with honestly and that there was a huge advantage in using our services. Check with our "Others Say" page here: http://www.mooneyland.com/CustomerFeedback.htm. These are examples of real customers comments. The first one on there is from a Military Officer who while in Iraq; we communicated for over a year until he came home and actually bought an airplane through our Location Service, which I actually thought that he was just needing a diversion and was a wanna be owner. No matter, we fed him so much information to share with his buddy's just to help keep his mind diverted from the war. When he came back and bought, we threw a dinner party for him as you can see in the photos which included Tom Leonard, a multi time Mooneyland customer and now owner of a new Acclaim. I still get calls from him and the many others about how much they are enjoying the airplanes and the support they get with my company. Mooneyland is the only source of FREE Mooney information that goes as deep and complete as Mooneyland does. We have supported even non customers and steered them in the right direction, so why do you want to be so destructive by slandering a company with false information that you have never done business with, and one that is dedicated to being helpful to Mooney owners and pilot's world wide in general? You must be a far left wing supporter because you make absolutely no common sense and your issues of truth in making public statements are lacking to the point of pure gossip. One last example is Steve Rutherford of Florida. He wanted us to locate him a 231. The best one we found was in Colorado and it was the best by far. The problem was that the seller knew his selling price was already a good one cut to the bone and had no room in it for a commission. I called Steve and told him that I could refer another plane were I would make money for the time I had spent, but gave him the information to complete the deal himself because it was by far the best of the best 231 out there and his best choice. Steve decided to pay me something out of his pocket which was unexpected but appreciated. Meanwhile was he happy? Richard, I’m writing to again say what a pleasure it was to work with you on the location and purchase of 1152G. Without you, a Mooney never would have been in the picture for Lisa and me. Your total conviction to the Mooney line first got us interested and we are now true believers. You’re pre-buy check out coordination with the Mooney Service Center in Denver brought to us (in Florida) an absolute gem of a plane. We also followed your suggestion and corrosion treated the plane to help offset our Florida humidity. This year, we breezed through our first Annual with absolutely no surprises what so ever. What a relief! Richard, I would be more than happy to tell any of your potential clients that the cost of your service was a true bargain! Also, your focus on your client is too be highly commended in this day of high powered, fast talking, no service after the sale environment that is prevalent out there. Not knowing the nuances of the Mooney, it was very reassuring to have an extremely competent expert watching out for our interests. You, for the weeks prior to locating 1152G, put up with my barrage of questions and concerns, and were always very accommodating in every way. Here we are, almost a year and 170 hours later, flying an airplane that is perfect in every way. We both absolutely love the 231 platform and cannot imagine a more perfect fit for us and our flying needs. It flies better, and more fuel efficiently, than anything we have ever flown and it has the speed, handling, altitude capability, dependability, and rock solid feel that I am extremely secure with. It is absolutely light years ahead of our former 182 in EVERY way! Yes, we are Floridian flatlanders, but the 231’s altitude capability sure does come in handy on those hot, towering cumulus days. It really is nice to quickly get above all of the lower altitude air traffic, circumnavigate the towering stuff, and pick up those wind speeds at altitude. The monthly trips to Asheville are now fast and smooth…a Lisa requirement! If we ever decide to move up in the Mooney line, you definitely will be my only phone call. Best Regards, Steven and Lisa Rutherford Merritt Island, Florida If you need a contact for Steve, let me know and I will send it to you privately with his permission, but it is all true and that is how the majority of customers feel about our service. You should think twice before slandering any honest and hard working company, but some people just think they are better than others which is the case and point here. One more question: Since locating a Mooney on your own, when was the last time you were able to buy anything for that bird at an aviation dealer's cost, or that hard to find part is easily located by us? We have saved some customers in the tens of thousands of dollars when upgrading panels, interiors, paint, engines, etc. and unfortunately you are not one of those who saved $ using our services. Many do however and that is why we're beginning our 21st year specializing in Mooney aircraft and supporting our customer base. Richard Zephro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WheelsUp Posted March 7, 2009 Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 While I read the boards, I'm not much of a contributor, but the latest post compels me to come forward.After flying for a while, I decided to take the plunge and buy my own aircraft. After deciding on a mooney, my next step was to understand all the gotcha's about each model, year, effects based upon TT, etc. I'm an engineer, so doing it on my own based upon my own analysis is going to be better than anyone can do for me, that's only natural for people like me. The more research I did, the longer and longer my gotcha list became. And the more research I did, the more I realized, what I didn't know. Looking at my family across the table at dinner and thinking, I've got to make a decision that doesn't add any additional risks for them, not to mention my bank account for a un-informed decision, I decided the best thing to do was rely on experience. For an engineer, that's like admitting defeat. Never-the-less, my new path was to now research people, I'm going to find the right person to get me the right plane. In the end, I decided to use Richard Zephro of Mooneyland.Even other brokers and dealers in the industry thought highly of Richard and his experience, yes I even asked various brokers what they thought about other brokers. I was very close to buying an aircraft before making this decision to use a buyer's broker and even showed Richard what I'd had found and my research. When I told Richard the tail number of my top pick, he had already done the research on that aircraft and told me why it was not a good decision. He had found a corrsion issue with the landing gear that I had not uncovered. After bringing my second choice to him, I soon realized, this guy know every Mooney that's on the market right now and in detail. Well why not, this is his core business and he's being doing for a long time. I didn't use Richard for the after-the-sell service, but more for the insurance of the purchase. I've got to tell you, I use him now than I thought I would. He's always there to answer any questions I have. He did fly with me and did show me things others had not. He's also showed me many items to watch out for in the maintenance process. Based upon my dealings with Richard and Mooneyland, he's not a guy looking to get rich, he's not out to screw people, he's a guy who truly loves the craftsmanship of a Mooney and wants show people the value of a Mooney. Based upon my discussions with other, I know some people may be turned off by his personality. Yes, he's a sales person, that's his nature. But if you are turned off by that and don't look past it, you're going to miss the real value here, his experience. He only wants to deal in Mooney and has been doing it for a long time. And even with my knowledge now, would I use Richard/Mooneyland again, without a doubt, YES ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgePerry Posted March 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 Quote: Mooneyland We are here to help those who feel intimidated by dealing with the public and plenty of people get screwed by the public with neither them nor their choice of mechanics at times even know what to look for. Our service utilizes professional and methodical means and experience to help insure that both the seller and buyer are happy with the result and most are; infactically, and we do everything to help insure that the airplane is not a money pit or dangerous. Brokers provide a service...I get it. I'm not trying to slander anyone. I'm just stating or providing links to facts. I'm sure you've got a long list of satisfied customers and I'm glad to see one decided to post. Everyone who reads these types of threads understands there's two sides to every story. My point is simple, planes are mechanical. No mystery or voodoo majic to'em As a self admitted individualist it is my opinion that anyone willing to educate themselves doesn't "need" a broker. For those who'd rather have someone else do the leg work, I'm sure companies like yours provide a valuable service. My issue is the way you go about it. On the phone and in your posts you more than infer, "use my service or you'll be sorry". I take issue with that type of fear peddling and I had to raise the BS flag. If that means we agree to disagree them I'm fine with that. As for the BBB website, I can't speak to the details behind your rating, that's true. The complaints might be totally undeserved, and I sincerely hope that is the case. But if it were my business I'd contact the upset parties and attempt to reach some type of accommodation. The only way potential "new" customers have to "vet" you is through the BBB. Good luck...and all the best Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooneyland Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 Generally doing business with someone includes the transfer of funds to one party or the other. If you read my post well enough you would have determined that NO MONEY changed hands in either complaint; in fact I had speculative work or preliminary work for both parties both of which went unpaid. With that done and contract in hand, at least one of the parties perhaps both decided to continue the work on their own and breached our contracts causing so much work and for nothing. There were two surprises: 1. That the other parties to the contract failed to perform on their end and yet reported my company to the BBB. 2. That the two complaining party's were even able to make a complaint when not a nickel of money was charged. If you read your own link about my company issue at BBB, you would have noted that in each event we attempted to contact each complaintant through the BBB as the suggested attempt to find out exactly what the problem was, but it goes on to say that neither party was accepting to any remedy which is why I feel that the issues were planted in the first place in order for the party's to think they had a reason to get out of their contractural obligation which is to not put us to work unless they honestly planned on going through with the purchase of an airplane through my company. Basically they found airplanes on their own (probably reading such lists as this) effectively shoving our contracts aside for their own gain once we shared the process of how we work in location and then they each took over the hunt on their own thinking that they would save money. What should I have done; paid them money not to complain when there was no monitary outlay on their parts? Where is the bureau that business can complain about prospective customers not honoring a contract they had signed? I had to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars; my retirement in effect in order to get custody of my two children that needed that to happen so the last thing I would do is hire more lawyers to go after contract breechers. There was no wrong doing or failure to perform on those two issues. Many people simply think that it is okay in this day and age to not keep their word or contractural obligations, and then if that is not enough, they think that there could be legal action taken and thus cover themselves in advance preemptively with a complaint to the BBB. I have little regard for the BBB especially now that I see the unfairness involved and have never used it personally for any reason. I simply take the time to ask for company references and follow up with that rather than use some burned out bureaucracy that doesn't take the time necessary to seek the real truth of the matter. Meanwhile when someone like yourself decides to make such an issue public and even provide a link for it on a list that could affect current and future business by making inaccurate statements as you had about my exhorbitant fees which do not exsist in the way you put it, you should always expect the accusee to respond which is what I did and am doing in the interest of truth and accuracy for all. Perhaps in the future you will check your facts prior to publically accusing someone with inaccurate information and also helping to cause the loss of time that was spent with the first time buyer; Jose, you were advising with your innaccurate statement. I know what Jose's situation was and he would have far more benefited as most do from the service and tech support we provide after the sale; not to mention that we try hard to make each pilot a better pilot better equipped to transition to high performance. The reason that I have stayed away from such forums for years now is that there are people who consider themselves "experts" in this field of aviation and are not, and I have personally read of many pieces of advice to an aspiring Mooney owner of things that I considered a dangerous practice, especially for the novice first time buyer. Some years back a man and his young son were killed in his first Mooney shortly after purchasing it. Because of the Mooney speed, he ran over another airplane in the pattern failing to see it. That man was actively involved in one of the forums and rather than being encouraged to seek a professional to help him transition to the more high performance airplane, he was encouraged by at least one list to just go out and practice pattern work on his own. A good and caring professional broker such as us at Mooneyland would have made at least some instruction available to him free of charge after the sale. That is in part what we are known for and once a customer leaves here; he is not only flown with and instructed in his new bird where possible, but he is educated as to the ins and outs of ownership, maintenance, preventative maintenance and everything to do with the owning and operating of his new Mooney airplane. I'm not sure if that man and his son would be alive today or not had they not been encouraged to do the searching for an airplane on his own, but I had spent quite some time on the telephone with that person prior to him buying his older Mooney elsewhere. We impress on all of our customers the importance of proper pattern operation, and who knows? That could have been just enough to have kept this man and his young son alive. One of the sins of flying that I find often is that many instructors teach to fly a tight pattern. Not smart in an airplane with the speeds of a Mooney. It's easy in a fast airplane to run over those pokey Cessna's and such, plus it creates the danger to over-bank base to final which is also a major pilot killer. My people are taught to take their time in the pattern squaring turns, how to look for traffic, etc. and not fly a too tight pattern simply because the instructor said that should the engine quit in the pattern; he could make the runway. That argument won't hold water as you're more likely to run over a Cezz 150 you can't see from behind than losing an engine in the pattern. We provide a wonderful and intense service to our customers AFTER THE SALE and I have not had one customer yet who said he didn't learn something from the experience of that free service, and those that contact me before giving some mechanic the go-ahead or carte blanche on an expensive repair or upgrade almost always save big money with my suggestions. A professional is just that. Professional, or he should be; and virtually all of our customers benefit from having the involvement of our company in their purchase and ownership and usually end up not having to pay any extra for their airplane of choice because we negotiate a commission from the seller based on his original asking price; plus we won't allow any customer to get financially buried in any airplane. They are smart enough to know if a deal or price is a good one or not and my customers think that they got a fair deal on a good airplane not to mention the services after the sale that Mooneyland provides. Again, there is no other company out there that goes way beyond the norm to see to it that the new Mooney owner is supported and taught how to operate that airplane in the safest most efficient manor, so if the word "Broker" is an ugly word to you; I have tons of Mooneyland customers who would disagree. Thank you. Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooneyland Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 GEORGE PERRY and the BETTER BUSINESS BUREAU! I received a phone call this morning from the Better Business Bureau asking me why all the sudden increase interest in my business due to increased inquiries no doubt spurred by George Perry's comments. I had asked them again about the 2 complaints that were issued and thus my B- Score. At the Austin TX office today; 512 206-2857, Ms. Mary Beth said that those two complaints WERE NOT strikes against my company because we made effort to resolve the matters and the complaintants no longer wanted to persue a complaint whereby no money was exchanged. THE REASON FOR THE B- grade is because the BBB is missing some information on my company such as when I started this company, updated address etc. and then offered me a charter membership because my business has been so clean over 20 years. Perhaps George Perry's child-like antics can learn some lesson here that he decided to publicize something about my highy specialized company that was not true. While it was nice of him to offer to help prospective Mooney buyers locate airplanes for themselves at no charge, I would hesitate to use such a person to help in such an important endeavor as to help approve or disapprove any airplane, the danger involved to prospective buyers who take his advice, and re-think the validity of any post he has made on this forum. I would consider the way this person went about slandering my company and my good name when he also never spent a nickel at Mooneyland and further decided to infer inaccurate gossip as to our fees and the way that we charge them; both of which statements were completely inaccurate. We at Coast to Coast Aircraft aka Mooneyland are asking George Perry to verify this BBB information he so falsely reported and submit an admission of inaccuracy and sincere PUBLIC APOLOGY on this very forum and to warrent that he will stop any further public slander about Mooneyland. Sincerely, Richard Zephro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgePerry Posted March 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 If getting mad at me makes you feel better - rant and rave as much as you like. Fact being I disagree with your missleading sales pitch. furthermore, I don't have anything to do with your BBB rating. If you want to get mad at someone about that, look in the mirror. If your going to spew your missinformation on the forum expect to be taken to task. If you don't like it, confine your comments to your "top notch" website Good day... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooneyland Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 It was not enough that you telephoned me to pick my professional brain so you could better continue your search armed with all I shared with you again under false circumstances; the fact remains George that your information is misleading at best and slanderous at worst and I think that the truth comes out here and is easy to see that you know nothing about which you speak because I have proved you to be wrong in every instance and virtually none of my customers agree with you or I would have heard about it. Rather than to promote anyone who has spent so much time and resources improving the operation and ownership of our fine Mooney aircraft with tons of information it is counter productive and perhaps even dangerous in your feeble attempt at making yourself seem like some professional because you own one Mooney. You are far from a professoinal and a mis-leader of information that could have broader effects than your limited mind would allow to comprehend. richard zephro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantom Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Richard.....do you really think this is doing you any good? Please give it a rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airkraft Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 I'll chime in on the C/E vs. F/J/K model discussion. We operate a '66E model. As for room, I've never been in back of an F or J so not sure how the extra +/- 5 inches of leg room feels. For trips less than about 2 hours I have no problem with 4 adults as long as they are not large. What is large? 5'11" and 180 lbs. might be a realistic estimate for the admittedly smallish rear seat. On a longer trip three adults and some extra wiggle room is preferable. If you are traveling 4 1/2 hours or more you are likely to be carrying a bit of luggage. Four adults and their stuff begins to challenge the cubes in a short-body Mooney. I have flown 3 guys ( two dimensioned close to above, me in left front seat @ 5'9" 155 lbs) three pairs of downhill skis/boots and gear for a weekend. Yeah, the airplane was stuffed but no complaints from anyone. Where else can one do this cruising at 10,500' and 11,500' at over 150 KTAS on less than 10 GPH?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcstealth Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Quote: fantom Richard.....do you really think this is doing you any good? Please give it a rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eaglebkh Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 George, Thank you for the informative post that started this thread. Thank you for writing about your concerns with Mooneyland. But really, what is there to gain from all these replies? I understand it's just your opinion and you don't mean to tell people how they should go about doing things. But if it's just your opinion, then say it once and let it rest. This is turning out like the bladders vs. tanks discussion that occured a few replies earlier. You don't have to "defend" your opinion just because someone else has a different point. Richard, I'm no moderator, but there is a line between defending your name and using this forum as a means to promote business. I think the people can decide now who is in the wrong. No doubt you have probably helped many people. This is a good forum, and I hate to see it trashed with pointless arguing and smearing. Now can we get on to meaningful discussions? Thanks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantom Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 I don't think less of Richard, McStealth, and I like Chili's ;-) There have been no facts presented, just opinions, and in retort to a short comment by George, who's offered a great deal of free advise, Zeph gets on the forum for the first time, and defends himself ad nauseam....IMHO. I watched him do the same thing on the Mooney list serve years ago, and I believe he does more harm than good by these dust ups. "Me thinks Zeph doth protest too much". ...Hamlet, sorta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooneyPilot231 Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Richard has re-learned something he already knew.....Internet forums are a very dangerous place for sales people of any kind. I sell what is considered by most to be one of the nicest offshore fishing boats in the country and you won't catch me anywhere near any of the larger boating/fishing forums. Someone knew a buddy who knew someone who heard that a guy's boat had problems with his fuel tank......it never fails. While I think Richard's website is a bit overblown and most people are capable of buying a Mooney without using a broker. I will say that some people have far more money than they have sense. I sincerely hope those people use Richard or someone who offers similar services. I sent Richard an email prior to making my purchase telling him I was a 160 hour pilot looking for a Mooney, I didn't get a reply. I managed to get the job done anyway. I don't know whether to respect Mr. Z for coming on here or not, but I will promise you the outcome hasn't been a surprise to him.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooneyPilot231 Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 Since I have a back ground in building very expensive race engines, I will add that if you are looking to fly on a budget, stay away from turbo charged versions of the Mooney. A 201 in my opinion is a really affordable airplane with a bulletproof engine. Yes, you will save some money buying an older Mooney but the older the plane, the more it will cost to maintain. The real secret to owning a Mooney on a budget is learning to do most of the maintenance yourself which is how I swing 350 hours of flight time a year for less than $1500 maintenance cost. (almost all parts) Just my thoughts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSMooniac Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 Minor nit-pick IMO with buying older vs. newer to save MX costs...if we're debating 20 year old vs. 40 year old planes, what is much more important is the recent use (last few years) and MX history than just the sheer age of the plane. A 40 year old plane that has been flown regularly and maintained well will absolutely cost much less to maintain than a 20 year old plane that has flown little and had MX deferred for years. Same goes for high-time airframes...there are some that have had the wear items replaced (like actuator motors, rod-ends, etc.) that will be in much better condition than a low-time airframe still using original parts. There are just too many variables in the equation to make blanket assumptions IMO. I do agree turbo will cost more to own and operate than a non-turbo. Some missions really call for a turbo, though. The best compromise IMO is a quality turbo-normalizer kit on a Lycoming IO-360. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avcheck Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 Intersting view about the turbo on the Lycoming. Trouble is, info is hard to find on these. Mooneyland site implies the engine was not made for the Rajay. But there are a number of owners out there without much negative info. Seems they do OK with the odd mid-life cracked housing. Plus, are parts readily available. In theory, it seems like a great option. I am considering a plane that needs to do the occasional 8 hour plus trip. Getting over weather seems like an option to have for a trip of that length. Plus, the 231 maintenance seems higher even though cost/mile might be lower. But acquisition is higher, engine O/H is higher. It strikes me that 231 maintenance is much more than 201 or F. The Rajay on the Lyc seems like a good compromise, not as fast but still capable to go up and over for those long rides. 8 hours @ 8,000 could be a pain in the butt. Getting in on a budget is only good if there are not too many compromises. Otherwise, it is better to save more or stretch to buy better. I like the C and E models, which are great for 2 people and most trips under 500mi. I could buy a C or E right now and be somewhat happy. But for longer trips and people/fuel, the F or 201 seems best, with the turbo added on being better still. Which means do more homework to see how far to stretch the budget. I'd like to hear if anybody has more info on the Rajay or turbos on the Lycoming. What is the extra maintenance cost? The only place to get real info is from real owners. I realize people don't want to talk $ on a forum, but ballpark numbers would be helpful or even ranges so you don't have to commit. Or PM if that is easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboExec Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 avcheck, I have a thread I start here a while back that when into great detail about my turbo setup on my F model, I'd go there and take a read. If you have any questions after that let me know and I'd be happy to answer them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avcheck Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 I have read your thread and the other topics too, although I do forget stuff occasionally. Your thread basically talks about the set up, speed and MP issues. I am interested in maintenance costs and in hearing from others with this setup. I like it over a 231 if the setup works, parts are available and it is not a pig to constantly repair. I take it yours has been good for the past 40 years. Has it been rebuilt? Is maintenance that much more from normally aspirated birds- M20 or 201 not 231 which in my mind costs more due to engine and equipment alone. I am just trying to get more info and responses. There is yours that appears to say it is good, and ML who says the Lycoming is not set up for it. Maybe Zephro will chime in here too. Your thread was good, just looking for more info from others and the cost factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboExec Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 Quote: avcheck I take it yours has been good for the past 40 years. Has it been rebuilt? Is maintenance that much more from normally aspirated birds- M20 or 201 not 231 which in my mind costs more due to engine and equipment alone. I am just trying to get more info and responses. There is yours that appears to say it is good, and ML who says the Lycoming is not set up for it. Maybe Zephro will chime in here too. Your thread was good, just looking for more info from others and the cost factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuvFlying Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Quote: GeorgePerry Thank you A LOT for this post. It's a great starter for me - just looking into getting a 201. Question though.. why is this a flag? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgePerry Posted August 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Quote: LuvFlying 7. “The GPS (IFR) data card isn’t up to date right now” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantom Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Is is pitch or power to control decent??????????????????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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