201 vs. 231

[FlyDave]

Hi all,

I will be moving up from my Cherokee to a Mooney and I need to decide on either a 201 or a 231. I just finished my instrument rating in September and with 500 hrs. in the Cherokee and 250 hrs. in my glider I'm ready to go faster and fly a better instrument platform. I've flown a J a little and I REALY liked it for instrument conditions. Good avionics and an autopilot is invaluable from both a safety standpoint as well as convenience.

I've haven't flown a CS prop but I really don't think that's a big deal to learn. I think the engine management with the turbo is more of an issue than that.

I've read all about the GB vs. LB engine and the benefits of having a Merlyn wastegate but would like opinions on an intercooler.

I'd also like some real world performance numbers on the K (TAS/GPH w/altitude) as well as maintenance times and $ on the K.

I live in the Los Angeles basin and here in the southwest, we get ground based turbulence as high as 16K' in the summer time. I'd like to be able to climb above that and bad weather en-route as well as take advantage of winds aloft when able.

All opinions are welcome.

Thanks,

Dave

[GeorgePerry]

I've got alittle time in the 231 (25 hrs or so) and about 500 in the 201.  Here's my simple man way to look at it.  Cost, turbo's cost more to buy operate and maintain...advantage 201.  Speed below 6k is a toss up but above that the 231 really starts to pull away, especially if higher altitudes are needed to take advantage of winds or get over mountains...advantage 231.  Ease of operation:  The 231 if unmodified has no boost limiter.  This means if you’re not careful you can over-boost the engine on takeoff or at lower altitudes.  In practice however, with just alittle training, good habit patterns and application of alittle engine management common sense, the 231 isn't hard to fly...Toss up.

If purchase price isn't big deal and slightly higher operating costs are worth the performance gains then I would buy the 231.  If you don't need high altitude capabilities and you can live with the 7-15 knot slower cruise speeds then a 201 is probably the way to go

Mods on a 231...You'll see as you shop around lots of 231's have been updated with various engine mods (intercooler, waistgate etc)  The 252 is a fine airplane and most mod'ed 231 emulate many of the improvements that mooney built into the 252.  My advice here, is do your homework.  No two airplanes are the same.  the type, quality and the shop that installed the mods are all important factors when trying to determine if it really adds to the value / utility of the bird.

Good luck

GMP

 

[TurboExec]

I'd go with the 201 over a 231 any day!  The Continental IO-360 is a costlier engine...both in operation and when overhaul time comes.  The Lycoming IO-360 is a near bulletproof engine, and most happily run LOP on stock injectors (if you are into running LOP).

Now if you could swing the cost of a 252, I'd say go for that.  There were significant changes made to the 252 over the 231 that made it a much better airplane.  Moonies bread and butter was the 252 in the late 80s before the bravo came out.  In fact if it weren't for the French (I think), they probably would have kept making the 252 for even longer.

It all depends on your budget, I know I've seen some 231's in the 201 price range recently, but I would expect those to be dogs....and I know 252s are still pretty coveted pieces of machinery.

My $.02

[TurboExec]

Here you go, this article will tell you a lot about the 252 and the changes made to it over the 231.

http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/M20K252_evaluation_report.htm

[M20BE]

I would go for the 252, holds market value also pritty good

[FlyDave]

Wow Guys!!! Great info - especially the writeup by C.K. on the 231. I'm going to email him to discuss the 231 further.

I don't think the 252 is in the finnancial cards for me right now - it'll probaby be a 231.

I'll let you all know if I have any more questions or when I have a new plane.

Again, Thanks!!

[Amelia]

I can't help you with a 201-231 comparison, but I've flown a Mooney 231 for about 28 years, both in an excellent partnership and, eventually, sole ownership, and you'll not get an unbiased opinion from me. Simply stated, I love my Mooney 20K.

Are they expensive? Ohh, yes, but that goes for any retractable-gear, high-performance airplane, I think. There's just more equipment to maintain and repair.  For the vast majority of my mostly-east-coast flying, a Mooney 201 would've been fine. I rarely really need to go much higher than 12,000 feet. But the sheer smugness of being able to say, "Yes, please!" when the controller asks you over inhospitable, cloud-draped high terrain if you can possibly accept FL 220, is incomparable.  Watching the groundspeed readouts in the mid200s is also glorious, as you watch those midwestern sectionline roads whiz beneath you from 17000 feet eastbound. The 231's built-in O2 is both a blessing and a curse- it would be mighty nice to be able to take the bottle over to the nearest welding shop and say 'fill'er up' for maybe $10, instead of forking over $50-75 per fill-up at Bazillionaire Jet Center, but if you're not routinely going over 12,000, it lasts a long time, is mighty nice for a quick pick-me-up before a night landing, and that big out-of-the-way bottle holds plenty for pilot and passengers for most trips, especially if using adjustable-flow nasal cannulas.

The much-maligned TSIO-360GB engine went well past TBO, with a top overhaul and  eventually one turbocharger thrown in a bit more than midway through its extended lifespan.  When the oil consumption edged upward and the climb speed began to feel a little anemic, I bit the bullet, and replaced both the engine (with a reman-TSIO360LB) and prop, and now it feels brand-new- for a lot less than the cost of even semi-new. With some panel upgrading (including replacing the never really trustworthy little radar with a G-530W) I know I'll never get my money back, but the fun and the feeling of confidence is a real joy. Now, speaking of putting five-dollar collars on two-dollar dogs, Mama really would like nice cushy new leather seats, please, Santa, but unfortunately, that's not in this quarter's retirement-fund budget. Keeping fingers crossed that my political pessimism is ill-founded, and a happier stockmarket will make that shabby original interior history.

Which one to buy? I suspect it all boils down to how much bang for how many bucks you can find... that and which one has the prettiest paint.

 

[KSMooniac]

Welcome, Amelia!  Nice write-up...I had to check your profile and saw that you are a writer!  Please post some more tales and stories when you can!

I think one of Craig's (site creator) desires is to see us write up trip reports, PIREPS for products/shops, tips & tricks, etc. for storage on this site.  I think all of us should set a goal to write at least one thing in 2009 that is worth saving here.

[mooniac58]

Quote: KSMooniac

Welcome, Amelia!  Nice write-up...I had to check your profile and saw that you are a writer!  Please post some more tales and stories when you can!

I think one of Craig's (site creator) desires is to see us write up trip reports, PIREPS for products/shops, tips & tricks, etc. for storage on this site.  I think all of us should set a goal to write at least one thing in 2009 that is worth saving here.

 Very true indeed!  I hope to have articles/resources up soon so any and all writers that contribute will be great!

[MooneyPilot231]

I like the Mooney 231 in Texas because I can always get above the Cumulus in the summer. Long term it is going to cost you more to operate but the ability to climb at 750 fpm from almost any reasonable altitude makes it worth it for me. I went this entire summer flying 20 days a month without once having to slug it out under 10k cumulus and associated turbulence. I can't put a price on that! As long as the plane has the LB1 engine you have no real problems and due to the stigma from the GB engine you can often pick up a 231 for less money than a comparable 201. I rarely fly over 12k but the years of getting my brains beat out all summer in 172 at 7500ft. left me with no doubt which one I wanted. Another factor is the space behind the engine on the 231. Much roomier to work on and inspect. You just need to decide what is important for you. For just a little higher operating costs, you go from few limitations to no limitations....

[Terry]

Just when I thought I knew witch Mooney I wanted this topic shows up. The job is still going to my surprise and some of the flying is getting interesting as well. This month we started flying East across the pond. I'm now about 6 months away from doing a cash deal on a "J" and now you guys have got me thinking about the 231. What to do? I see the price come down every day it seems on the "F" and "J". I had not thought much about a turbo just for the cost of buying one and feeding it. The biggest worry to me is how it was cared for before I buy it. I have spent the last 35 years in the Flight Levels and can see a real plus for being able to operate in the upper teens and very low 20s. I feel much better at night as well knowing I can dead stick into an airport somewhere. The hard part is deciding if a 231 is the right thing to do. It may not be worth it for my 50 to 75 hours a year type of flying. Here is one on eBay right now, care to "rip it apart" as a learning exercise in Mooney buying? Why or why not would this be a good deal, what would be a fair price for this airplane with the information in the listing? What is NOT being said?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=320334890975

Terry

 

[FlyDave]

All,

As stated in my original post, I fly a Cherokee right now. I put together this spreadsheet on J vs. K costs. I'm not sure how it will be formatted in this message but, if you can make out what I've listed, please coment on the accuracy from your own experiences with your mooneys.

 

 

Mooney 201 vs. 231
Hrs. Flown/Yr.	125
$/gal. Avgas	$4.50
	Mooney 201 (TBO 2000)	Mooney 231 ( TBO 1800)
Engine Hrs.	700	700
Years until Rebuild	10.4	8.8
Gal/Hr.	10.5	12.5
Gallons/Year	1313	1563
Fuel/Yr.	$5,906	$7,031
Annual	$1,000	$1,400
Oil Change	$202	$202
Misc. Repairs	$1,200	$3,500
Insurance	$1,600	$1,800
Yearly Total	$9,909	$13,934
Average TAS	160	170
Hours flown comparable to Cherokee (Cherokee TAS 107)	187	199
Initial Outlay	$85,000	$85,000
Total Yearly Expenses UNTIL Rebuild	$103,050	$122,616
Engine Rebuild cost	$30,000	$40,000
Total Expnses Through Rebuild	$218,050	$247,616
Yearly Operating Cost Comparissons
Purchase + 1 Yrs expenses	$94,908.63	$98,933.63
Purchase + 2 Yrs expenses	$104,817.26	$112,867.26
Purchase + 3 Yrs expenses	$114,725.89	$126,800.89
Purchase + 4 Yrs expenses	$124,634.52	$140,734.52
Purchase + 5 Yrs expenses	$134,543.15	$154,668.15
Purchase + 6 Yrs expenses	$144,451.79	$168,601.79
Purchase + 7 Yrs expenses	$154,360.42	$182,535.42
Purchase + 8 Yrs expenses	$164,269.05	$196,469.05

 

[Amelia]

Far be it from me to rain on a parade or cast aspersions at a Mooney,  231 or otherwise, but it's been a while since I had an annual for that price, even with a new engine. My 231 went to almost 2000 hours before it got tireder than I was comfortable with. And don't forget the sad tendency of wet-wing Mooneys to eventually need a tank reseal. And don't think you won't decide you need a snazzy new stack of radios... the point is, that if you're figuring it out to the penny, it might be wise to add 'sticking with the one you already have' to the serious list of considered alternatives.

[Amelia]

That said, the one you're looking at might be well worth a much closer look, if the price stays in the $70K range- you could buy a lot of upgrading for that, assuming the engine's still in good shape.

[GeorgePerry]

Noting in aviation can be calculated to the nth degree.  Fixed costs are easily forecast, but unexpected costs and variable costs, if you’re unlucky, can be so large that comparisons with any degree of accuracy are improbable.  Suffice to say that owning a 231 will cost more on average than a 201....how much more is relative and might not always be the case. 

[FlyDave]

I understand what everyone is saying about not being able to nail down the cost of ownership. I own both a Cherokee and a glider so I do have an idea of what it costs to maintain those.

I'm looking for an average for annuals and additional yearly expenses - with average hours flown per year, for say the last 5 years, for each a J and a K.

If anyone would like to share those numbers, I would appreciate it. I'm not looking for "what it will cost me", just an average of what people are spending.

Thanks,

[Cruiser]

you don't have anything in for prop and governor overhaul. If it is included in the engine costs I think you need to add a little. And what about the turbo overhaul on the 231?

 

 

[Amelia]

I think what's being said here is that 'averages' are relatively meaningless. If you bank on 'average' and you have to replace something integral and expensive, if you need a top overhaul that George didn't need, if your annual comes in at $3500 when you were counting on that assumed average of $1200, if you find an AD for corrosion you weren't expecting, or some dingbat lineman crimps your nosegear and you don't notice until next annual, you're going to be one unhappy camper. And there goes that slush fund for the gotta-have avionics.

Seems to me my first tank reseal lasted about 4 or 5 years, (beware of fast-talkin' good-ol-boy Floridians!!) and I put up with the seeps for another 5 years; last year's job in Minnesooda, which I hope will last as long as I'm still able to get in the airplane, ran, if I remember right, about $9000. ooof. The thing is, I'm told, the tank re-seal on that vintage Mooney isn't so much a matter of whether, but when. Not sure what the average is on the turbo lifespan, but it's sure a huge help when the wind is on your tail at 15,000, and on the nose at 5000, or when your choice on a typical summer day is clear, smooth and cool at 12,500 over the tops of the puffy clouds, or bumping along in the hot and humid murk at 6500.

Which one's a better bet? When it comes to airplanes and cost, better remember the admonition, "Dahling, if you have to ask, you cahn't afford it."  But life's all about choices. I choose to dress like a homeless person and drive a 15-year old car. But it's a NICE airplane. And besides, I'm worth it.... (if you need any help, I'm an expert at justifying unnecessary luxuries.)

[MooneyPilot231]

My take on this is that if the cost difference between a 231 and a 201 is a significant amount of money to you, you probably don't need either one. I can tell you from experience that there are almost no parts on a Mooney that cost less than $250. I just had a wing tip strobe go out. Called....$265 for a freakin' light bulb! Did I mention that my prop that was O/H 250 hrs ago is leaking at the base of all three blades. Coming off tomorrow for new prop seals. $600-$700. (That is with me removing it). I figure about $2000 a year for an annual that I do most of myself and about that much for unexpected repairs during the year. Keep in mind I fly 300 hrs plus a year but that usually doesn't impact maintenance cost that much and regular use as we all know helps most of your aircrafts systems. Planes are like houses, always buy a less than you qualify for !!!!

[FlyDave]

From the numbers I posted, I had $1400 for the annual and another $3500 in additional repairs throughout the year. All I was asking for were a few people's actual costs over a 5 year period. It almost sounds like you think I'd come back to someone here when my yearly expenses were higher than what someone else posts? Geeze.

Like Amelia, I drive a 10 year old car and currently have an old Cherokee and a sailplane. The Cherokee is a great airplane as a first power plane but it's time for me to move on. I WILL be buying a Mooney. And just so we're clear, the only "qualifying" I have to do to buy either a J, K or 252 for that matter, is with my wife. We are finnancially conservative - that's why we're not in the SH_TTER like the rest of the country and are looking to BUY an airplane - not having to SELL my airplanes (anybody looking for a good little Cherokee in a month or so?).

Now, on a lighter note, a quote from an old glider buddy that is applicable to today's economy:

Just remember, you can sleep in your airplane, but you can't fly your house!!!

[KSMooniac]

Dave, my only advice would be to buy the best example you can find, and that will minimize the surprises down the road.  You probably already realize that thanks to your Cherokee experience, though.  Find one that was cared-for with timely maintenance and upgrades by the owner, and not one that was simply "used up" just to be passed down the line.

I'm at my 2 year anniversary this weekend, and the only surprise I've had was a landing gear motor that gave up the ghost ($1000 rebuild and labor) as I was about to land at Willmar for fuel tank rehab ($8000).  Other than that, I've added an HID landing light ($450 + my labor), replaced the balky OAT gauge with a Davtron M655 ($200 + my labor), and Garmin WAAS upgrade x2 ($3400 total).  Minor stuff at annual like filters, strobe light lenses, baffle seals, plugs etc don't really count in my opinion.    My annual is due in February, and I'm debating about replacing the tach with a Horizon electronic model and/or sending my yokes off for a leather covering at Aero Comfort.  Paint and a LoPresti cowl are high on the wish list for later in the spring.

[Amelia]

As I confessed earlier, I have never flown a 201, and fell into this 231 by sheer good luck. It has been a fabulous- if snug- cross-country ride. It's been all over the US and most of Canada. It hopped over the Canadian Rockies in a single bound, one of the few times I've actually broken out the oxygen masks to go over 18,000 feet. What an incredible view of the Icefield Parkway between Jasper and Banff!!  On the way back, it got us home from California to South Carolina in well under 8 hours, with a gratifying tailwind and one fuel stop. I couldn't be more pleased with this airplane's performance. The exchange of a cute, but hopelessly underpowered radar (a little in-wing-banana-dished sales gimmick that was great for showing the leading edge of a big nasty cb I could perfectly well see the leading edge of) for a Garmin 530-W was expensive. But, oh, my, what a difference in IFR conditions. My choice of precision approaches was instantly more-than-doubled. I couldn't be more pleased. Now, I'm eager to get a shabby interior refurbished, but haven't figured out how to justify it. Yet. I'm still figuring.

Is a 231 better? Well, I tell you: I am quite honestly prejudiced. Its extra oomph, its extra climb rate, its extra altitude capabilities have made me very happy on a number of occasions. If I'd had that turbocharger when we were ready to depart from Aspen one warm afternoon, we wouldn't have had to pay for an extra night in a fancy hotel to wait for cooler air that would get our old C172 over the  mountains toward home. More times than I could count, I've been delighted to hop right over the rain, haze, heat, and bumpy clouds to smooth and sunny on top, higher than a 201 likes to be. I honestly don't think I mind the extra 2 gph, but if I do, I can always throttle back from my usual 75% power. I don't HAVE to burn 11gph. The only issue is the maintenance, and I suspect there's more variation WITHIN each category than between the two. Fly it properly and have a very good mechanic, and you'll be pleased, regardless of your choice.

[FlyDave]

All,

Please excuse my prior post. It was uncalled for and written in haste, not to mention rude.

Please accept my humble appology as my post was anything but humble.

[Rustler]

I'm a new member of the group and have just returned from a 2000-mile + trip in my new-to-me 1980 M20J. If anything fully sold me on the 201, that trip was it.

On average, I was 50-degrees lean of peak and burning 8.3-8.5 GPH and showing about 145 indicated. I cruise at 23" and 2400 RPM and show CHTs in the 340-350 range.The aircraft has 1800+ hours both on the airframe and on the engine, and not a hiccup was to be heard the entire trip.

My return trip was a classic example of "higher ain't necessarily better," since winds aloft increased about 15K per thousand feet, so I'd probably have hovered in the flight levels in a 231.

For my money, the average pilot on average flights can't do much better than the 201. Operating expenses are remarkably low for today's aircraft, and the speed is exceptional. That said, if one's mission required long hauls regardless of weather, a 321 would be a really nice ride.

Would I like 240K? Sure. But I can't complain about 170-200K across the ground, either.

 

Michael

 

[fantom]

Can't give you exact numbers, but the guy in the hanger next to me has a beautiful 231. His annuals run double what mine do (use whatever number you want, but the one you have in your spread sheet is way too low, IMHO), his cowling is always off, and in general a turbo needs a sharper eye all the time, both mechanically, and while flying, and Amelia makes some fine points about the other upgrades you'll be wanting soon after purchase.

If GA flying came down to real numbers on a spread sheet, we'd all be in trouble. It ain't about the cost, it's about the mission profile and the enjoyment. Being in CA that turbo will come in handy getting over the mountains.

For my 2 cents, throw away the spread sheet (the actual costs aren't that different) and go with your gut.