M20E cost and speed?

[cocolos]

For all the m20E owners what have been your fixed cost? also what is a reasonable price for 20E? What airspeeds do you usually get?

[flight2000]

So far, here's mine:

Insurance: $1100 per year on $72,500 hull (can't rememeber the other qualifiers, but can look at the policy later)

Hangar: $200 per month

Training: $300 per year minimum

For the rest, it's a matter of what you want, how often you fly, and how well parts hold up over time. I've done a lot of mods to mine since I bought it and I'm a stickler for maintenance, so those items have driven up my costs overall.

I normally flight plan between 155 and 160 KTAS between 8 and 10K feet. Normally see ~10 gph fuel burn up there at those speeds.

Reasonable cost will really depend on what you want out of it (and in the panel for that matter). A standard, unmodified aircraft will be in the $38-$45K range. That is my personal opinion only. Guys that do this professionally would be able to give you a better estimate, but everything is so subjective and dependant on the condition of the aircraft it is difficult to pin a number on what a typical E should cost. If someone wanted to try and pry mine away from me, it would take about $75K as equipped and with the hours on the engine and airframe (both fairly low).

I also have more information on our E at www.67m20e.com

Hope that helps a little.

Brian

[rbridges]

I would definitely call your insurance company and find out what your rate would be. that varies a great deal depending on hull value , coverage and your flying history. Call the local airport and find out what hangar/tie down options are available and their costs. In some areas, finding a hangar is difficult and long waiting lists exist. Find out who would do your annual and ask what a no-squawk annual is. that is a baseline, but there's usually something they find. Where I live, I pay property taxes on my plane. They have it assessed at 38K, and that runs me around $3-400/year.

[scottfromiowa]

As stated the fixed costs vary based on experience and requested hull value as well as liability limits (insurance). Hanger costs vary greatly from area to area...or tie downs. Fuel is approximately $5-$8/hour and an E burns 9-11gallons/hour. Six-8quarts of oil/30-40 hours at $6.00/quart, Registration in your state. State sales tax, Annual at $70ish/hour. My plane will only do 160knots down hill or with a tail wind. 140 on average (groundspeed) with winds and desire for economy over all out speed. Prices for M20E models are all over the place. These are 45+ year old airframes with condition, equipment and hours as well as "experience" and maintenance varying to a LARGE degree. I agree that a well-maintained and equipped M20E is in the 60-75k range. With 201's that really is the top price point...

[scottfromiowa]

And Brian's plane would be a STEAL at $75k...in my opinion

[cocolos]

Cool thanks for the great info. Brian your website has a ton of information thanks! I want to figure if it would be better to co-own or sole own. These numbers help a lot. Does anyone here co-own? what are your experience with it?

[rbridges]

Cool thanks for the great info. Brian your website has a ton of information thanks! I want to figure if it would be better to co-own or sole own. These numbers help a lot. Does anyone here co-own? what are your experience with it?

I know Scott recently went into a partnership. This allowed him to buy a sweet sports car. Sharing is great IMO but you have to have a partner who has similar ideas about how to maintain the plane. Just like a marriage.

[jetdriven]

Cool thanks for the great info. Brian your website has a ton of information thanks! I want to figure if it would be better to co-own or sole own. These numbers help a lot. Does anyone here co-own? what are your experience with it?

We began our airplane ownership as a partnership and still do. My wife and I are 2/3rds and we have a 1/3rd owner. We split fixed costs 50%, upgrades 2:1. its better for us (less expensive), and better for the plane (it flies more and rarely sits more than 4 days). Figure 20K a year for a M20J, and you can see the savings of a partnership.

[cocolos]

Well ideally I'd like a M20J but I think a dual partnership on a M20E would be just as comparable and cheaper. In terms of performance and cost. Would E be a better buy than a J?

[danb35]

The E and the J are very different animals. An E will give you close to J speed on the same fuel burn, but you have less range, less payload, and less interior room (specifically in the back seat). It will also be older. OTOH, it will also be considerably less expensive, and operating costs should be about a wash.

If you're planning on only flying solo, or having only one passenger, the interior room may not be an issue. Even the E's range exceeds most people's bladders, so that may not be an issue either. But they're things to consider. What mission do you have in mind for the plane?

[scottfromiowa]

I entered into an equity partner agreement (LLC) LLC was only $50 in Iowa. All costs are split 50-50. It makes owning and maintaining an aircraft almost justifiable.

[scottfromiowa]

An E is fine for a young family too. We traveled with kids for years...up to their entering college. Often schedules made it a two or three proposition (flights) anyway. Buy in is less with an M20E than a J, but I would buy a GOOD J any day over an M20E...That said I am Super happy with my M20E for my mission 400 nautical mile flights to cottages in northern Wisconsin. An E is no more snug than a J up front...

[flight2000]

Scott nailed it. Room isn't an issue for us either, so the lower entry fee for the E was a great selling point for me. My wife likes to sit in the back and read and my oldest sits up front with me. Both of my kids are skinny as all get out and I've run the numbers all the way through they are out of the house and I won't run out of useful load, even with full full. We stop every 2-3 hours anyway because someone always has to use the bathroom...

Don't get me wrong, I'd trip over myself to get a loaded 252 or Missile, but the extra cost wasn't worth it for the type of trips we take. The extra inches in the back seat would be nice, but the passengers haven't complained...yet...

Thanks for the compliment Scott. I've made more upgrades since the last time I was up in your neck of the woods.

Brian

That reminds me, I need to make some updates to the website on a few of the pages....

[cocolos]

I mostly plan 400nm trips with maybe a 1000nm trip once a year.

[flight2000]

My longest is usually 600 nm (KC to Cle) and I can do that in about 5.5 hours and includes a 45 minute stop for fuel and bathroom break in Illinois. Most other trips were within a 300 nm circle of Kansas City where I was based before being stationed in Germany (that's another story all together).

The E will do 400 nm easily on a tank of gas and still have reserves.

Welcome to Mooneyspace by the way!!

Brian

[rbridges]

You may want to consider an F model. It's a stretched E model, so you have the same space as a J. I believe it also has the same size fuel tanks. It would be priced b/t the E and J models.

As others have said, I'd snag a nice J if I could, but all things being even, the E and F models will be less expensive. Keep in mind, the J models transitioned into a more modern cowling and windshield that are good for a few more knots.

[DrBill]

I've had mine just over a year.

My insurance is $1000 / year for $55K hull. (I'm IFR- current, with c500 hrs, 75 in mooney)

I own my "portable" hangar so I pay $65/mo for the space it's on. Shade ports are $130/mo at my airport. Many owners close them in at least on 3 sides if not 4.

I flight plan for 135kts at 8000. I burn c 9GPH at 2400 RPM (throttle wide open at that altitude).

Last year my total costs was $7k for 100 hrs of flight time. That included the annual and gas.

I bought it with all the avionics I wanted and will soon add ADSB OUT and IN.

In 2007 the previous owner put $45K of avionics in it. I got it for $47K. Price depends HIGHLY on avionics, then Total time and condition. My engine is at half life like most others for sale. I looked and looked for 6 months to find an E or an F within 150 miles of CLT.

By far, the best airplane I've flown yet.

BILL

63 M20E

[cocolos]

Hi Bill do you sole own? AlsoiIs there mods you can do to get the speed of an E up to a J?

[danb35]

There are speed mods that will allow an E to get closer to J speeds, the biggest being the windshield and cowling. Don't buy an E planning to install them, though--you'll be much better off to just buy a J.

[M204ever]

The J with manual gear, flaps and cowl flaps and properly sealed fuel tanks ...

[scottfromiowa]

And Metal Wings and Tail.

[richardheitzman]

I really enjoy reading this forum and especially this subject because the only way poor old Richard will ever own a plane is in a partnership with someone else.

Let me ask a big question. Has anyone identified and protected themself from unusual repairs when stepping into a partnership? What I mean is let say you find someone with what appears to be a great aircraft, well taken care of, and the owner offers a 50% stake in the aircraft. So you decide to buy in and the first time you fly it, on your check out, the engines eats a valve and that 1000 hour engine now needs a complete rebuild. So your initial entry, of say $25K now has an additional cost of a rebuild and you have not even flown it one hour?

So is it reasonable to expect the original owner to have a amount set aside from operating the aircraft for the overhaul? (1000 hrs x ? per hour) or did Murphy just stick it to you and now you owe half of an overhaul on a engine that was fine the day of the prebuy?

That type of situation is what keeps me from taking that leap of faith. I could never come up with half stake in the aircraft, then turn around and pay for an engine rebuild right out the gate.

[flight2000]

Richard, you just hit the number one fear that I had to over come when I bought my plane. I've just some how learned to deal with it and if my engine should happen to give up, well, I'm prepared for that. A lot of due diligence is required, but that's not foolproof either. I went with the odds that a catastrophic failure wasn't going to occur based on what I saw during the pre-buy (a clean engine).

If you're entering a partnership, might be a point of negotiation for you. I would prefer a joint maintenance account that is built upon the number of flight hours. If the aircraft has 1,000 hours, I'd expect to see half the amount of a rebuild in there already and then the partners can contribute their share based on the hours they fly. Regular maintenance can be built into the account based on a certain figure per flight hour as well. To me that would seem fair.

Brian

[fantom]

Easy issue to amelioriate with a good partnersip agreement, via a maintenance reserve clause....just like a prenup.

Of course, if on that first flight you have a gear up, prop strike, or blow up the engine flying LOP , the shoe's on the other foot.

The devil is in the written agreement, and the process will help you understand if you can really live with the partner(s).

[TWinter]

M20E is a great plane as all have mentioned. Will carry four folks for 3-4 hr trip without too much complaining from the rear. The ladies usually take the back so under 5'8" +/- is our usual. Insurance for VFR PIC w/ about 150 hrs total with less than a 50 hrs PIC in the Mooney was $900 a year. Got my PPL twenty yrs ago then fell out of the hobby after about a year. Now just getting back into it this past year. You already have lots of input. Here are a few pics of what the Mooney view is at 3500' along the Mississippi. Not trying to set speed records, but about 25 square here in these pics. Not much wind, maybe 5 or 6 knots pushing. A great bird to fly without big expenses.