robert7467 Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danb35 Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 From reading the other thread, what led some to suspect you were trolling was that you were (apparently) ignoring a lot of input by a number of very experienced Mooney pilots and instructors, in favor of how you do things and how you understand your CFI to do things. At some point, it starts to look like you're just stirring the pot. Whether that's true or not is another question, but it does start to look that way. I won't address the specific piloting technique issues, as I don't think I have the experience or qualifications to speak with any kind of authority on them--though I do think your CFI was doing you a disservice if he wasn't insisting on your trimming the airplane in all phases of flight. And it's good that you have confidence in your CFI. The flip side is that no CFI is perfect, and they all have things they can learn (some more than others, naturally). I'm also glad to see that you have a desire to be safe. I'm sure you know that desire alone won't do it, and you need to know how to fly safely in addition to wanting to. Learn from good sources (experienced instructors and pilots here and elsewhere), and more importantly, work on judgment. Most accidents, it seems, result from poor decision-making rather than poor stick-and-rudder skills. You're new to flying. Welcome! I (and I'm sure the rest of the members here, though I can't speak for them) genuinely wish you a long, happy, safe flying career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Yea I don't understand your point of your previous thread Robert. Were you looking for suggestions? Because you ignored every suggestion given to you. Calling you a troll is a bit childish. But your days of accident free aviating are numbered Robert. Time to check that ego of yours. And that of your instructor. Be safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulro767 Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Hmmm, that's a first for me. Above post was mine. Sorry Byron! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert7467 Posted July 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Robert, In your second situation, where you lost the light. Why did you continue to take off? If you had it to do over again, would you have handled it the same way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert7467 Posted July 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 yes... I was already up to TO speed. Keep in mind that I couldnt see the runway, and my eyes were not adjusted to complete darkness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker_Woodruff Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 There is enough conflicting information in your posts that I cannot really give much further advice as far as flying technique, other than consider your CFI and if you are listening to him, or if you need to examine his technique. I really wish you'd give this another look... http://donmaxwell.com/publications/MAPA_TEXT/M20-202%20-%20Eight-Second%20Ride/EIGHT_SECOND_RIDE.HTM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Quote: robert7467 yes... I was already up to TO speed. Keep in mind that I couldnt see the runway, and my eyes were not adjusted to complete darkness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert7467 Posted July 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 The plane just has its annual, I told him about the shimmy, and he did jack the plane up, and use a plumb (he is a Mooney specific mechanic). The only time I have an issue with a shimmy, is landing with full flaps and not having the plane trimmed out (lots of down pressure on the nose gear). The 182 I fly does that as well, even with a dampener on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danb35 Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 If you took the advice to heart, that's good, but it wasn't evident from your posts. The posts read like you were just defending your/your CFI's way of doing things. Your repeated assurances that your CFI is competent don't carry much weight, because your own lack of experience makes you ill-equipped to assess his competence. I don't have a particularly strong opinion on T&Gs. The USAF aero club where I trained flatly prohibited them (and this was in Warriors, not in Mooneys, and we had a 12000' runway). I can see that they could have some value, but I'd also think a stop-and-go would have much more value (you're getting an actual landing to a stop, and a takeoff from a full stop), as well as much less risk (you're not needing to reconfigure everything in such a hurry)--but I have nowhere near the experience of qualifications of some of the others here who feel much more strongly on the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker_Woodruff Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Quote: robert7467 The plane just has its annual, I told him about the shimmy, and he did jack the plane up, and use a plumb (he is a Mooney specific mechanic). The only time I have an issue with a shimmy, is landing with full flaps and not having the plane trimmed out (lots of down pressure on the nose gear). The 182 I fly does that as well, even with a dampener on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert7467 Posted July 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Rob, you are probally right, but going 70-80 MPH, and then all of a sudden the lights go out and you cant see anything, it was a split second decision I had to make. One thing I knew for sure at the time, was I was going fast enough for TO. Think about being in a room, and all of a sudden the lights go off, it generally takes me around 5 seconds for my eyes to adjust, and I dont think I would have had 5 seconds to make a decision in this case. It was so bad, after I touched down, I had to taxi at below walking speed becuase I could barely see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immelman Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Robert, if you're holding it off long enough to touch down with the horn on and the stick (yoke, sorry) just about all the way back, you're doing OK. BUT: your technique is chewing up an awful lot of runway. Note that kinetic energy goes up with the square of velocity. 10% in excess speed means far more than 10% extra landing distance. Mooneys do very well using 1.3Vstall as an over-the-fence speed. Between no-flap and full-flap landings this is a difference of 9mph or so. IF your C is fully loaded (MGW), 90mph would probably be close to the appropriate speed for a no-flap landing. If you're at solo weight and use flaps, that will be down in the 75mph range, possibly even a touch less. If you are not comfortable flying the airplane at that speed, I suggest some periods of slow flight & minimum controllable airspeed (at altitude) practice to learn control feel, rudder coordination (adverse yaw is greater at low speed), and impending stall signs (irrespective of the horn) to learn how the airplane 'talks' to you. BTW, regarding shimmy: Mine started shimmying, too. I've already gone through a lot of the moving parts on my NLG but now the rest needs to be done. Replaced the steering horn last week, and UPS just delivered new shock biscuits and the SB-202 'spacer' which will get installed this week. The Mooney NLG is a high-wear area in our aircraft. If its shimmying, its wearing even more quickly. Get it fixed right - it may be 1000-1500 in parts by the time you're done to replace all wear items in the NLG - and it will be good for many, many more years. If you get the nose up off the ground sometime and crawl under to take a look, try to wiggle the NLG in various directions (fore, aft, side to side - which will show you how the pivot truss and bushing are doing), as well as pivot (steering) which will show you how the steering horn and associated rod ends are doing. With the steering there are a goof half-dozen parts that get worn, each adding to the 'play' in the nosegear. This translates to a dead spot as you move the rudders to switch between steering to the right vs left. Now imaging those parts taking a beating back and forth as it shimmys at 75mph... once you see how its put together you'll see for yourself 'this ain't no cessna' and will see the value in taking care of these items if they need it. This is in addition to the tracking spacer to improve caster angle to prevent the shimmy in the first place.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 robert I have been in a similar situation as you, with the same mechanic. I didn't know i had a problem until Don Maxwell took a look at it. A simple fix and I was on my way and the nosegear felt much better. Bill is a good Mechanic and a great guy, and he does maintain several Mooneys, but he doesn't have the experience or knowledge of a MSC, specifically Don. The bottom line is that the nosegear shouldn't shimmy, as Parker said. If it is, there's something not right with it, regardless of trim/etc. Can you please at least go to the plane, put the prop straight vertical, and measure the distance from the tip to the ground? My guess is that it'll be too high, and a pretty simple fix. Mine was the same way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Quote: robert7467 Rob, you are probally right, but going 70-80 MPH, and then all of a sudden the lights go out and you cant see anything, it was a split second decision I had to make. One thing I knew for sure at the time, was I was going fast enough for TO. Think about being in a room, and all of a sudden the lights go off, it generally takes me around 5 seconds for my eyes to adjust, and I dont think I would have had 5 seconds to make a decision in this case. It was so bad, after I touched down, I had to taxi at below walking speed becuase I could barely see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Quote: Immelman Robert, if you're holding it off long enough to touch down with the horn on and the stick (yoke, sorry) just about all the way back, you're doing OK. BUT: your technique is chewing up an awful lot of runway. Note that kinetic energy goes up with the square of velocity. 10% in excess speed means far more than 10% extra landing distance. Mooneys do very well using 1.3Vstall as an over-the-fence speed. Between no-flap and full-flap landings this is a difference of 9mph or so. IF your C is fully loaded (MGW), 90mph would probably be close to the appropriate speed for a no-flap landing. If you're at solo weight and use flaps, that will be down in the 75mph range, possibly even a touch less. If you are not comfortable flying the airplane at that speed, I suggest some periods of slow flight & minimum controllable airspeed (at altitude) practice to learn control feel, rudder coordination (adverse yaw is greater at low speed), and impending stall signs (irrespective of the horn) to learn how the airplane 'talks' to you. BTW, regarding shimmy: Mine started shimmying, too. I've already gone through a lot of the moving parts on my NLG but now the rest needs to be done. Replaced the steering horn last week, and UPS just delivered new shock biscuits and the SB-202 'spacer' which will get installed this week. The Mooney NLG is a high-wear area in our aircraft. If its shimmying, its wearing even more quickly. Get it fixed right - it may be 1000-1500 in parts by the time you're done - and it will be good for many, many more years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywarrior Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Just a note. Reading this new thread is the first time I saw the mention of 'mph'. In the previous thread, I thought he was referring to knots IAS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert7467 Posted July 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 no all mph...... if it was knots, i would be floating and bouncing, and prop striking.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Robert-- 90 mph is still too fast. That is my speed on downwind, with approach flaps down, then lowering my gear starts the descent. I hold 90 mph on base, and aim for 85 mph when I roll wings-level on final and decelerate towards the runway. Having 2 miles of runway will quickly spoil you. My home field is 3000' long, and I try to reach the trees on approach while 150' agl and down to 80 mph, after clearing them I pull throttle to idle while further slowing to cross the numbers at 75 if heavy or 70 if light. ["Heavy" means within 200 lbs of gross weight, 2575 lbs; "light" means me/me & wife with half fuel or less.] I am attaching a copy of the Manual for reference. What does yours say? See the offset CAUTION statement about landing at too high an airspeed. That is why so many people have been telling you that you are too fast! Fly safe! P.S.--This lets me land on the second stripe past the numbers, and comfortably stop around 2000' with only light braking. I also don't start braking until the plane slows under 50 mph cause brake pads are expensive, and I'm cheap . . . Ooops! I meant "frugal!" How far down the runway are you touching down/stopping? My home field only has one turnoff, 1000' from one end [or 2000' from the other end], so saying "first turnoff" carries little meaning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert7467 Posted July 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 My main practice airport is Covington, the airport where the plane is hangared is Millington. When I solo, I fly out to Covington, do a full stop, fuel up, and drink a cup of coffee with Mark. I only do 1 full stop Covington without my instructor, and then do touch and goes in Millington, because if it did continuous touch and goes in Covington, and return to Millington thats when I will have issues with the wide runway illusion. I touch down right after the numbers, and tower has me turn on taxiway Charlie. I have never had an issue with the plane overshooting. She sets down right where I want her to. My 2nd solo was at Charles Baker (short narrow airstrip). I am going to work on my trim/flap configuration this weekend, I know I will need this for my checkride. I will then do more slow flight when my instructor is in the right seat just to be on the safe side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantom Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 These type of threads on MooneySpace, and one lazy and moronic dentist have me considering a return to Moony Talk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker_Woodruff Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Quote: rob 1.3 Vso with no flaps, power off (67mph), in an M20C at gross is 87mph 1.3 Vso with full flaps, power off (57mph), in an M20C at gross is 74mph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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