Help a newbie

[A10haSnackbar]

Hey folks! Just want to introduce myself!

I’m an AH-64 Apache pilot stationed in Hawaii. I’m looking at PCSing next year and am looking at getting a Mooney. I Currently have CPL-H, PPL, ASEL, AMEL, inst, High performance, complex.

 

I’m sending my wife to 141 school when we get back to the mainland, after she is done with that; we plan on starting to fly the Mooney. Looking at using the aircraft for cross country, IMC, and possibly volunteering for Angel Flight to help with volunteer hours. We are aiming for about 500 hours a year.

 

My question is this: Would this aircraft fulfill this mission and what do I need to be aware of if I purchase this aircraft.

 

- Eric

 

 

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[ArtVandelay]

Do you need to fly high regularly and will need O2 system and a turbo?

How much do you want to spend?

[dkkim73]

You will find a great plane, love that plane, log many hours, get good return on money, and then in about 8 yrs you will be back here as your family grows asking what to do and being told to buy a Saratoga.

But seriously, the Mooney is a *great* choice for an adventuresome couple. Especially in your case where she will be a flyer, too. 

Definitely think on the turbo question. For me, it became a no-brainer due to terrain and wx where I fly.  Do you have a fairly good idea what tours you will do, or could you end up anywhere? 

Welcome aboard. I think there are two other AH 64 guys here, and someone who by their name might have flown the Cobra. 

[Fly Boomer]

5 hours ago, A10haSnackbar said:

Would this aircraft fulfill this mission and what do I need to be aware of if I purchase this aircraft.

You didn't say what your budget is, but for serious all-weather cross-country flying, think turbocharger and TKS anti-ice.  That translates to M20K (with aftermarket TKS), M20M, M20TN, or M20V.  Can you go cross-country without these things?  Sure.  But it increases the pucker factor, and you need to prepare to RON at unplanned stops. 

[A10haSnackbar]

Do you need to fly high regularly and will need O2 system and a turbo?

How much do you want to spend?

If we get stationed out west or some where with a high DA I would definitely be looking at something with a turbo. As far as oxygen I’m not super concerned about a built-in system adding a generator or a pulse demand system should get me up to 18K without an issue.

Budget I’m looking around $120k-150k but I am flexible with that number.


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[A10haSnackbar]

You didn't say what your budget is, but for serious all-weather cross-country flying, think turbocharger and TKS anti-ice.  That translates to M20K (with aftermarket TKS), M20M, M20TN, or M20V.  Can you go cross-country without these things?  Sure.  But it increases the pucker factor, and you need to prepare to RON at unplanned stops. 

How hard is to get a FIKI one? Obviously this is going to add quite a bit to the total cost. Would it be better to go with an older panel with at TKS system vs a newer panel without TKS?

Definitely getting a hotel loyalty card for all the ROMs. Me and my wife already have hotels built into the budget.

For the turbo what do I need to be on the lookout for? I’ve been reading about some aircraft have really messed by schools with improper use of the waste gate.


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[DCarlton]

3 minutes ago, A10haSnackbar said:

How hard is to get a FIKI one? Obviously this is going to add quite a bit to the total cost. Would it be better to go with an older panel with at TKS system vs a newer panel without TKS?

Definitely getting a hotel loyalty card for all the ROMs. Me and my wife already have hotels built into the budget.

For the turbo what do I need to be on the lookout for? I’ve been reading about some aircraft have really messed by schools with improper use of the waste gate.


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https://www.gmaxamericanaircraft.com/inventory/?/listing/for-sale/230924845/1996-mooney-m20j-mse-piston-single-aircraft?dlr=1&dscompanyid=6946&settingscrmid=614667

[A10haSnackbar]

You will find a great plane, love that plane, log many hours, get good return on money, and then in about 8 yrs you will be back here as your family grows asking what to do and being told to buy a Saratoga.
But seriously, the Mooney is a *great* choice for an adventuresome couple. Especially in your case where she will be a flyer, too. 
Definitely think on the turbo question. For me, it became a no-brainer due to terrain and wx where I fly.  Do you have a fairly good idea what tours you will do, or could you end up anywhere? 
Welcome aboard. I think there are two other AH 64 guys here, and someone who by their name might have flown the Cobra. 

Ha! Thanks for the encouragement!
Turbo question is going to be based on what my next duty station is. Outside of the an airport with a high DA and mountains what would be the advantage and disadvantages of a turbo? I.E. is it useful during normal cruise flight?


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[dkkim73]

8 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

https://www.gmaxamericanaircraft.com/inventory/?/listing/for-sale/230924845/1996-mooney-m20j-mse-piston-single-aircraft?dlr=1&dscompanyid=6946&settingscrmid=614667

That's pretty cool. Do you know if the TKS installations in those planes are generally FIKI or inadvertant only? If FIKI that would be a pretty nice solution, though NA. 

Ovations with TKS might be another option, though above that budget I think. 

[exM20K]

16 minutes ago, A10haSnackbar said:

Ha! Thanks for the encouragement!
Turbo question is going to be based on what my next duty station is. Outside of the an airport with a high DA and mountains what would be the advantage and disadvantages of a turbo? I.E. is it useful during normal cruise flight?


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Your budget should get you into a 231 or 201.  I owned a 231 for 12 years spanning the birth and first 5-7 years of kids.  I put TKS on mine, and there are a few out there that come up for sale from time-to-time w/ TKS.  It is non-FIKI on the 231. 

Nearly all of my flying is east of the Rockies, and I find the turbo to be very valuable.  If your trip legs are long, it's nice to get up and over the fair weather cumulus and enjoy higher cruise speed, glide distance, and slightly less than half the time, tailwinds.  Shorter legs (say:150NM), and I wouldn't bother w/ the turbo.  Fltplan.com and Foreflight have pretty good performance engines for these planes, so you can see what the difference is on your high-percentage trips.

I would opt for the built-in O2, and I believe most of the 231's are so-equipped.  I simply don't like random stuff in the cockpit. It will cost more to fill than a portable, but that is not life-changing money, and there are DIY work-arounds.

How many others had to google "PCS?" lol.

 

-dan

[Fly Boomer]

2 hours ago, A10haSnackbar said:

How hard is to get a FIKI one?

Many or most of the later models have FIKI.

2 hours ago, DCarlton said:

Would it be better to go with an older panel with at TKS system vs a newer panel without TKS?

I wanted serious all-weather cross-country (maybe I should say "most-weather" because these are all single-engine pistons) so I was, and continue to be more interested in TKS than a flashy panel.

[MikeOH]

Not trying to be critical here, but 500 hours per year, for personal/recreational flying is REALLY high!  Frankly, even 200 hours a year is quite a bit. Just be realistic.

If you are truly going to fly 500 hours/year then for dispatch you should have turbo and FIKI.

As far as budget, you gave a PURCHASE number.  Honestly, that is far less important than on going costs.  What is your budget you and your wife can comfortably spend per year?

[Fly Boomer]

2 hours ago, A10haSnackbar said:

For the turbo what do I need to be on the lookout for? I’ve been reading about some aircraft have really messed by schools with improper use of the waste gate.

The early M20Ks (231) offered the opportunity to fry engines with a less-sophisticated "waste gate", but some aftermarket solutions made them better.  For the later M20Ks (252 and Encore), they have absolute pressure controllers so you don't have to think about the wastegate.  It's one of the reasons the 252 was so popular when it first came out.  Mooney 231 drivers could hardly believe you could just go balls to the wall on takeoff with no regard for over-boost, overspeed, or huge temperature excursions.  It's always possible to fry cylinders because of inattention to temperatures, but, in spite of their reputation, I don't think the more recent turbo Moonies are more prone to problems than normally aspirated.  One new thing you have to be aware of is that if you fly in the low- or mid-twenties (or even upper teens), there just isn't much air up there to cool the cylinders so you may have to pull the power back a bit, or add fuel if ROP, or reduce fuel if LOP, or run with the cowl flaps open -- whatever it takes to keep temperatures under control.  A modern engine monitor is your friend.

[A10haSnackbar]

Not trying to be critical here, but 500 hours per year, for personal/recreational flying is REALLY high!  Frankly, even 200 hours a year is quite a bit. Just be realistic.
If you are truly going to fly 500 hours/year then for dispatch you should have turbo and FIKI.
As far as budget, you gave a PURCHASE number.  Honestly, that is far less important than on going costs.  What is your budget you and your wife can comfortably spend per year?

$5k per month


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[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, A10haSnackbar said:

$5k per month


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I think you are golden, then Others with Ks/252s can chime in.

My F, over 8 years, has averaged $1500 per month.  I'd love to have your budget!

[Schllc]

1 hour ago, A10haSnackbar said:

$5k per month


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The purchase price of the plane is mostly relevant if you have to finance. 
When you buy an airplane, and if you maintain it well, it is basically an interest free savings account. You will more or less get what you paid for it when you sell.  
The cost to operate, store, insure and maintain is the cost that seems to surprise some new owners. 
My original budget was a little less than yours, and I ended up spending 2.5x what I expected, and I do not regret the decision. 
Buy the newest, best maintained and equipped airplane you can afford, it will pay dividends in dispatch and less surprises. 
over the last 10 years I have scrubbed two missions because of mechanical/electrical issues and I fly 200 hours a year. Btw, it is hard to fly 500 a year if you are working, that’s a LOT of traveling. But if you manage to squeeze all that in, I agree you absolutely need a turbo and at least tks. 
Lots of opinions about turbos here, so I’ll just say this, I have yet to meet the person that bought a turbo and regretted the choice. 
 

[dkkim73]

5 hours ago, A10haSnackbar said:

Turbo question is going to be based on what my next duty station is. Outside of the an airport with a high DA and mountains what would be the advantage and disadvantages of a turbo? I.E. is it useful during normal cruise flight?

I haven't flown a lot recently in areas with lower MEAs. Out in the west, the turbo means good climb rates all the way up, and easy compliance with MEAs and strategic dodging of icing layers. My plane does not have cooling issues where I've flown it so far (up to FL210), usually but not exclusively LOP. But I hear some variation in experience based on the engine, cooling baffle design, and ROP vs. LOP operations. 

In my mind, the turbos make it easier to manage power, at least with a good design and automatic wastegate. 

And, practically, you get full power (or whatever you select) higher up as opposed to letting ambient pressure set power for you. 

Aside: Your comment about fancy panel vs. TKS, I would also choose TKS. I love the fancy panel (G1000) but you can get a lot of the same SA with thoughtful selection of other avionics and a good tablet GPS (Garmin etc) or iPad. 

 

[dkkim73]

6 minutes ago, Schllc said:

The cost to operate, store, insure and maintain is the cost that seems to surprise some new owners. 

You're just saying that because of the jaw dislocating and hitting the floor, and the multiple heart attacks. Not to mention the puzzled look from the wife. 

 

6 minutes ago, Schllc said:

My original budget was a little less than yours, and I ended up spending 2.5x what I expected, and I do not regret the decision. 

Ha. I resemble that remark. 

 

6 minutes ago, Schllc said:

Lots of opinions about turbos here, so I’ll just say this, I have yet to meet the person that bought a turbo and regretted the choice. 

That's definitely been my experience. I remember hanging it on the prop to climb to 10k in the hot summer in a rental plane with passengers in the 2000's. Carefully planning low routes. Now I blow through 10K early in the climb and mostly worry about crossing weather systems. 

Then again, amazing what the Mooney airframe can do in many forms. Lots of happy J owners taking amazing trips. 

I passed 200 hrs in the plane in a bit under 1.5 yrs, but that's with a commute... I hope I can keep up the regularity, it really helps. 

[A10haSnackbar]

I think you are golden, then Others with Ks/252s can chime in.
My F, over 8 years, has averaged $1500 per month.  I'd love to have your budget!

Well it is a lot of savings and keeping track of the budget. Plus me and my wife don’t have any debt. Basically the plan is to run it for 4 years at 500 per year while we build up our hours. She’ll need the full 1500 I only need 750 total but my military time should take me over that amount. I’m really looking into IMC time; it is my number one goal right now.


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[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, Schllc said:

Lots of opinions about turbos here, so I’ll just say this, I have yet to meet the person that bought a turbo and regretted the choice. 

@A10haSnackbar ^^^^THIS^^^^

[N201MKTurbo]

If you want to build hours, just buy a solid M20C and fly the wings off of it. It is cheap to own and fly. It will get you anywhere you want to go.

[Pinecone]

Even if you are east for your next tour, turbo is nice.  I LOVE cruising in the teens above the bumps and low weather.  No traffic, less frequency changes, more direct routing.

My favorite was out of KBJC back home to NE Maryland.  Plains 2 Departure, Akron Transition, DIRECT.   The direct leg was about 1300 miles.

What you really want is a 252 ore Encore with TKS< but that is way out of your budget.  I have a 252 without TKS and it does limit some dispatch, but not that much.

BTW you say 500 hours per year.  That is a LOT of flying.  Average of 10 hours per week.  Combined with work and other things, a LOT

[A10haSnackbar]

Even if you are east for your next tour, turbo is nice.  I LOVE cruising in the teens above the bumps and low weather.  No traffic, less frequency changes, more direct routing.
My favorite was out of KBJC back home to NE Maryland.  Plains 2 Departure, Akron Transition, DIRECT.   The direct leg was about 1300 miles.
What you really want is a 252 ore Encore with TKS BTW you say 500 hours per year.  That is a LOT of flying.  Average of 10 hours per week.  Combined with work and other things, a LOT

Really it’s going to be my wife using the airplane for building hours. I’ll probably be doing about 150 per year. We’ll do some “logging dual time” with the whole simulated IFR with one person acting as a safety pilot. I just don’t want to abuse it too much. I.E. having 500 hours of safety pilot time.

It does seem like the TKS is outside our budget especially without it being FIKI rated. It does seam like I should start off with a turbo. Is it possible to get a 4 cylinder with turbo?

BTW I did my initial fixed wing up at KBXM in Maine. Even got to do the Hudson Corridor and fly around the Statue of Liberty; right before my instrument check ride. It was pretty amazing flying up there


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[Jackk]

I have flew coast to coast in a 150hp ish planes, I’ve also taken 65hp tailwheels into the mountains.  And I’ve had them based on the west coast.

I’d wager most any Mooney will fill your mission easily. For dispatch and instrument skills get a /G that can also can fly an ILS, everything beyond that is a bonus creature comfort.  Save that money for paying experienced instructors for specialized training and for gas

As for ice, meh, it’s not a PC12 or something, avoid ice ether way, especially if you don’t have much experience in it.    

For the turbo, it’s more maintenance, sucking o2 out of a hose isn’t fun, and real world there are not many places you can’t go in the US at 9k or below.  
 

She’ll also learn MUCH more about aviation flying like that vs in or near the FLs

I’d also HIGHLY recommend she not build 1500hrs mostly flying that Mooney around for personal flying. This is not the same hiring market it was a few years ago.  Flying her own plane around for fun post CPL pales in comparison in expense compared to working the line as a CFI/pipeline/tours/skydive/etc pilot.

Also spirit of the reg was now you’re a CPL baby pro pilot, so you work from 250-1500 learning to be a better pro pilot and then become a ATP big pro pilot

 

Edited July 29 by Jackk

[IvanP]

20 hours ago, A10haSnackbar said:

$5k per month


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I think that the budget may be a bit too optimistic for the mission you are describing. While you may be able to squeeze into the purchase price limit, it will probably not be a top notch bird that you would lke and you may have to add substantial amount for keeping it airworthy. 

$5k per month will barely cover the gas at 500hrs/year if we consider current prices about $7/gal (depending wher you are, of course) and burn rate of 15gal/hr, you are looking at over $50k in gas alone per year. At that rate of flying, you wil likely have to either overhaul or replace the engine in 4-5 years, assuming you get a plane with a recently overhauled or new engine (unlikely for the price you indicated as your budget). Depending on engine, you may be looking at 60-100k for that project alone. Amortize it over 4 years and there is additional $1600 or so per month, add hangar, costs of annuals and ordinary maintenance for wear and tear, etc,.... 

I wish you the best in search for teh plane that will fit your needs. Jimmy Garrison at G-Max is a great place to look https://www.gmaxamericanaircraft.com/ Jimmy will give you straight answers to your questions.

Edited July 29 by IvanP