MikeOH Posted July 27 Report Posted July 27 2 hours ago, jlunseth said: This is really simple. ATC is not responsible while you are on VFR Flight Following, you are. Responsible for what? Separation? (You) Handoff from approach to tower? (ATC) 2 hours ago, jlunseth said: You make sure you have yourself covered. Uh, for what? 2 hours ago, jlunseth said: You don’t treat ATC like an adversary, you cooperate with them and they with you. I haven’t seen anything that suggests otherwise. 2 hours ago, jlunseth said: So if directed into Class C or D, or even B, and there is ambiguity, you are responsible to ask if you are cleared in. Focus on the OP’s case. He was not “directed into Class C” he ESTABLISHED two-way comms per the Regulations and LEGLLY proceeded into KSBA’s Class C. There was no ambiguity. So, again, just what was he responsible for? FAR cite please if you believe he committed a violation.
midlifeflyer Posted July 27 Report Posted July 27 4 hours ago, Thedude said: But in this case I was talking to approach and following their instructions to "follow the freeway and make right traffic for 25" and I switched frequencies with no delay when they handed me off. My main question is whether that is sufficient to meet the requirements as stated in the FARs, and as far as I can tell from the comments here, it is, but that's all I'm trying to clarify. If you are looking for perfect clarity, it's not there. The 100% guaranteed safest answer? Always ask if you are not comfortable about it. There's a bit of situational awareness to this. For example, in my mind, there is a difference between transiting over the top of a Delta at pattern altitude vs. 1,000' above it. Near pattern altitude and a potential interference with pattern traffic, my spidey sense would act up and I'd be wondering whether Approach forgot to hand me off. "Do you need me to switch to Tower" is so easy to say. I gave the example earlier about Pueblo Colorado where I received my pattern instructions and landing clearance from Approach. I know that's unusual and I know that the pattern is Tower's domain. When I received the "make left downwind" instruction, I read back, "Left downwind runway 26; should we switch to Tower?" Answer was, "stay with me." (Turns out the controller was working all three stations - Approach, Tower, and Ground - that morning. Go find that in the FARs!) Your situation presents a similar issue. You don't know and can't know (LOAs are not public) how that facility separates Tower and TRACON jurisdiction within the Charlie. I can't say what I would do in your situation because I wasn't there, but a simple readback, "follow the freeway, right traffic 25, should I contact Tower now?" would not be a crazy idea. "Required" from a regulatory perspective? I don't think so (and I'm actually less concerned here than in the TRACON to D situation because I've been on downwind VFR at pattern altitude still talking to Approach at a Class B primary and well inside the inner circle as Cs many times; never thought about asking to switch), but that doesn't mean it would not be a good operating practice to check if you think something is strange. Bear in mind that I tend to have what I think is a very practical ... um ... approach .. to these kinds of issues and if there's a compliance risk, it's too small for me to care about. 1 1
midlifeflyer Posted July 27 Report Posted July 27 BTW, if you happen to be a PilotWorkshops IFR Mastery subscriber, there's an IFR version of this scenario. In that one, the pilot is told to "expect visual approach," is vectored onto final, but does not hear he words "cleared for the visual" when instructed to "contact Tower." The pilot changes frequencies but notices the missing clearance before keying the mic. Even some of the RoundTable members visibly cringed at my answer of what to do. 1
dkkim73 Posted July 27 Report Posted July 27 19 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said: BTW, if you happen to be a PilotWorkshops IFR Mastery subscriber, there's an IFR version of this scenario. In that one, the pilot is told to "expect visual approach," is vectored onto final, but does not hear he words "cleared for the visual" when instructed to "contact Tower." The pilot changes frequencies but notices the missing clearance before keying the mic. Even some of the RoundTable members visibly cringed at my answer of what to do. Do you recall how long ago or what title? That's a good series.
midlifeflyer Posted July 27 Report Posted July 27 12 minutes ago, dkkim73 said: Do you recall how long ago or what title? That's a good series. It's #113. "Not Cleared for the Visual. " 1
N201MKTurbo Posted July 27 Report Posted July 27 3 hours ago, midlifeflyer said: I hope that doesn't mean you are worried about the handoff to Tower In for anything special? Time for a coffee or something? Here for work. We are installing an instrument at Research Triangle Institute and it doesn’t quite work right yet. I need to make it better. I have no idea of my schedule this week. I’m free this afternoon.
midlifeflyer Posted July 27 Report Posted July 27 This afternoon is a no-go for me. If you are going to be busy, don't worry about it. If you think you'' have time, PM me.
N201MKTurbo Posted July 27 Report Posted July 27 25 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said: This afternoon is a no-go for me. If you are going to be busy, don't worry about it. If you think you'' have time, PM me. Will do
PeteMc Posted July 27 Report Posted July 27 (edited) 6 hours ago, jlunseth said: This is really simple. ATC is not responsible while you are on VFR Flight Following, you are. All true, but not relative to the original post. In this discussion the pilot was in touch with ATC, which is whom you talk to before entering a Class C, right? You do not call the Tower directly when going into the primary Airport in a Class C. Now you may question if the pilot was on the correct frequency or even the the correct sector, but that is NOT on the pilot, that is totally an ATC issue. I have no idea what sectors have been combined, what frequencies have been changed do to maintenance (scheduled or otherwise), etc., etc. So if I'm talking to ATC my entire flight, they fly me right up to the edge of the Airport and tell me to contact the Twr, I've done my part. If there's an issue that the Twr didn't know I was coming, that's on ATC. A lot of pilots were getting yelled at when NY Approach covering the ISP Class C were releasing them right at the edge of the FRG Class D, and sometimes even inside. No pilot's were dinged, to my knowledge, but it is true that the Class C and D are separate and it was on the pilot to directly contact the Twr. I remember it was a hot topic at one of the Airport meetings and the Twr Chief pushed it up on his side. Shortly after that when transitioning the Class C you were cut loose while in the C to contact FRG. Worked great. (But again, this is nearby C & D Airspace, not the same as going into the primary Apt in a Class C.) Edited July 27 by PeteMc 2
midlifeflyer Posted July 27 Report Posted July 27 2 hours ago, PeteMc said: All true, but not relative to the original post. In this discussion the pilot was in touch with ATC, which is whom you talk to before entering a Class C, right? You do not call the Tower directly when going into the primary Airport in a Class C. Now you may question if the pilot was on the correct frequency or even the the correct sector, but that is NOT on the pilot, that is totally an ATC issue. I have no idea what sectors have been combined, what frequencies have been changed do to maintenance (scheduled or otherwise), etc., etc. So if I'm talking to ATC my entire flight, they fly me right up to the edge of the Airport and tell me to contact the Twr, I've done my part. If there's an issue that the Twr didn't know I was coming, that's on ATC. A lot of pilots were getting yelled at when NY Approach covering the ISP Class C were releasing them right at the edge of the FRG Class D, and sometimes even inside. No pilot's were dinged, to my knowledge, but it is true that the Class C and D are separate and it was on the pilot to directly contact the Twr. I remember it was a hot topic at one of the Airport meetings and the Twr Chief pushed it up on his side. Shortly after that when transitioning the Class C you were cut loose while in the C to contact FRG. Worked great. (But again, this is nearby C & D Airspace, not the same as going into the primary Apt in a Class C.) The way it’s suppose to work. Get TRACON to do its job so pilots can do theirs. An ATC and pilot partnership.
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