Medical lesson learned.

[Dick Denenny]

For those of you that are smarter than me this probably wouldn't happen. 

Been operating under a Basic Med since it started and worked fine. I have a home in Canada and thought I might try to get my Class III so I could fly up there again so applied. I was denied and now find out I can't go back or just continue my Basic.

At least six months to get a Special if I can get it. And I just got my 66 E out of annual. 

Word to the wise. Check with AOPA before doing anything. Lesson learned. 

Dick

[Rick Junkin]

So sorry to hear of your situation. This has never made sense to me from a practical perspective. I'm flying on Basic Med and can continue to do so essentially for the rest of my life, barring encountering any of the prohibited conditions or failing to meet the periodic testing and physical exam requirements. Why does a denial of a traditional medical certificate disqualify me for Basic Med privileges if I'm already operating under Basic Med?

The more nefarious part of the medical certificate process is there is no reliable way to determine if you can pass the physical before you go before an AME, and once you start the application and examination process you're stuck. I've heard anecdotally of AMEs who will agree to do a "pre-FAA exam" without logging into MedExpress but I haven't run across one myself.

But none of that helps you, @Dick Denenny. Thanks for sharing your learning, and the best of luck with your special issuance.

 

[Paul Thomas]

3 hours ago, Rick Junkin said:

So sorry to hear of your situation. This has never made sense to me from a practical perspective. I'm flying on Basic Med and can continue to do so essentially for the rest of my life, barring encountering any of the prohibited conditions or failing to meet the periodic testing and physical exam requirements. Why does a denial of a traditional medical certificate disqualify me for Basic Med privileges if I'm already operating under Basic Med?

The more nefarious part of the medical certificate process is there is no reliable way to determine if you can pass the physical before you go before an AME, and once you start the application and examination process you're stuck. I've heard anecdotally of AMEs who will agree to do a "pre-FAA exam" without logging into MedExpress but I haven't run across one myself.

But none of that helps you, @Dick Denenny. Thanks for sharing your learning, and the best of luck with your special issuance.

 

If you want an opinion for an AME, you do a consultation without even filling out a MedExpress. There are also plenty of people that pencil whip medical exams.

When I needed to do mine last year, I happened to be out of town. Everyone I called was booking weeks out. I found a guy that could see me that day... I found out why: his exam took me four hours but once you've started, you've got to pass so I was very patient. I will go basic med next time; it's not worth the hassle or the risk.

[LardLad]

I'm young-ish and perfectly healthy but going basicmed this time just out of fear of this situation.  At some point my worrying about this is going to drive my blood pressure up above threshold just for the AME.

Having given it some thought I see three basic ways around this while you wait for your special issuance: 1) ultralights 2) powered glider and the most practical 3) Hire a cfi to fly your plane with you

Going option 3 you can't log PIC time but I think that's the only restriction.  Then you'll keep from getting rusty and probably avoid a surprise in your insurance rate when your yearly flight time nose dives for the next rate quote.

This is probably common knowledge for those of you already on basicmed, but I just recently learned there really isn't a denial for basicmed.  So if you've got some issue at exam time nothing goes to the faa, they just don't sign the paper.  Then you can work with your doctors to correct it or if it's something insane just find a less annoying doctor to try again.  I'll happily drive across the border to avoid that kind of stress.

Good luck!

[Hank]

2 hours ago, LardLad said:

Having given it some thought I see three basic ways around this while you wait for your special issuance: 1) ultralights 2) powered glider and the most practical 3) Hire a cfi to fly your plane with you

And Option #4--get a friend to ride with you. I can let an unlicensed person manipulate the controls if I want. You could still log the flight time without PIC. I think this would work . . . It would certainly help keep you in practice. 

[toto]

4 hours ago, LardLad said:

3) Hire a cfi to fly your plane with you

Going option 3 you can't log PIC time but I think that's the only restriction.

Who says you can’t log PIC time? If you’re appropriately rated, you can log PIC while receiving dual instruction whenever you’re the sole manipulator of the controls, and the CFI can also log PIC.

 

[LardLad]

Huh, I don't know now, you might be right.

[wombat]

I'm a CFI and do this with licensed pilots that I'm providing instruction to regularly.  They manipulate the controls, we both log PIC.

Edited July 17 by wombat

[toto]

(I’m a CFI as well, fwiw)

 

[LardLad]

Yeah, seems like I misread a couple regs when I was diving down that rabbit hole a while back.  Appreciate the correction @toto

[76Srat]

I can attest and verify that your experience(s) with the morass that is the FAA medical process/Med"Express" is not your fault.  It is solely and squarely the fault of the FAA in OKC.  Here's a direct quote of a very high up at CAMI OKC on the delays related to all processing of all FAA medical applications:  " . . . lack of overtime possibilities, DRP departures and influx of thousands of ATC applicants".  I know this doesn't and shouldn't make any of us feel any better about this situation, but per Washington DC, all ATC applicants get priority over any other AME/Med"Express"/medical applications because of the optics and politics of it all.  Combine that with the severe shortage of agency personnel who process such applications and we have the nastiness that we all encounter when our applications are either denied or simply delayed without any further explanation.  Here's a quick and dirty example of just how ridiculous this has become (I'm in the process of trying to assist a family friend with what I'm about to describe):

A now-18 year old student pilot applied for a medical via Med"Express" when he was 16 and was denied because of an ADHD prescription written to him when he was . . . five (5) years old.  His parents actually forgot they ever had such prescription written for him back then.  The FAA denied his medical application, as a result (error number one).  When they appealed, the FAA took 6 months to respond, which the FAA then required this family to fly their son from Tulsa to Washingon DC to see the FAA Flight Surgeon.  They tried for over 6 months to get an appointment, only to be given the cold shoulder until one day in the throes of an icy January Friday and they had somehow, magically been given an appointment for the following Tuesday, in DC.  They pull the kid out of school, book last minute flights and had their appointment.  The doc there asked them why they were even seeing him, to which they replied, "we were told we had to do this, if our kid wants to get his medical reconsidered".  The doc then asked, "reconsidered for what?  Did he get denied because of this [the former ADHD 'scrip from 10 years prior]?"  "yes".  Doc's answer:  "This is ridiculous.  Your kid is fine and I'm approving this appeal right now."  This was two years ago, by the way.  

Fast forward to this very day:  Still in limbo in OKC.  The Tulsa-based AME failed to send in the DC Flight Surgeon's paperwork approving this appeal.  When the Tulsa AME did, OKC refused to even confirm receipt, citing (get this) "HPAA regulations prevent us from discussing this matter altogether".  Recall that this kid was originally 16 when all of this started.  He's now 18 and thus an adult, so his parents are now on the outside looking in, and the FAA regional office (Ft Worth) are giving them the ultimate taffy-pull bulls*t response.  

We finally received word back in May that "the file is on the desk of the agent in OKC working this matter and will be processed in queue in June".  This still hasn't moved from where it was two years ago as of this evening.

This isn't a post to throw anyone at the FAA under the bus, but truly what the f*ck??  This is insanity on its finest display.  An applicant can be suicidal, and on meds to curtail same, and as long as they can attest to not being suicidal for at least two years prior to applying, the FAA will automatically approve that applicant's medical.  But this kid, who truly wants to fly and fly for a long time, gets denied for something he was prescribed when he was 5 years old and never filled the 'scrip and never took the meds can't get his damned medical app approved or his appeal worked timely?  Ridiculous.  Beyond ridiculous.

 

 

[dkkim73]

1 hour ago, 76Srat said:

This isn't a post to throw anyone at the FAA under the bus, but truly what the f*ck??  This is insanity on its finest display.  An applicant can be suicidal, and on meds to curtail same, and as long as they can attest to not being suicidal for at least two years prior to applying, the FAA will automatically approve that applicant's medical.  But this kid, who truly wants to fly and fly for a long time, gets denied for something he was prescribed when he was 5 years old and never filled the 'scrip and never took the meds can't get his damned medical app approved or his appeal worked timely?  Ridiculous.  Beyond ridiculous

Just think. Some people want *more* government and bureaucracy (including contacted) injected into medicine. 

I just remind them of the DMV...

So sorry to hear of this young man's ordeal. 

[Danb]

Wow. 

[dkkim73]

I took a quick look at Basic Med last night. The big limitation in my mind is to 18,000 ft and below. 

I wonder if this was conceived in terms of where "simple" private flying would end, or if the aeromedical folks made a more specific assessment that high altitude risk factors would be better assessed by AMEs. 

For those instrument rated turbo mafiosi on Basic Med, how did you approach this trade off in your thinking? 

 

[Fly Boomer]

2 minutes ago, dkkim73 said:

For those instrument rated turbo mafiosi on Basic Med, how did you approach this trade off in your thinking?

I can easily stay below 18,000, above most of the bumps, get most of the speed, and not be as concerned about oxygen crapping out.  As speeds go up, picking up a few knots at a higher altitude doesn't have much of an effect on time enroute..  According to Foreflight, higher may only pick up a couple of minutes on a flight of a few hours.  I've had all the excitement I need in this lifetime.

[Jackk]

15 hours ago, LardLad said:

I'm young-ish and perfectly healthy but going basicmed this time just out of fear of this situation.  At some point my worrying about this is going to drive my blood pressure up above threshold just for the AME.

Having given it some thought I see three basic ways around this while you wait for your special issuance: 1) ultralights 2) powered glider and the most practical 3) Hire a cfi to fly your plane with you

Going option 3 you can't log PIC time but I think that's the only restriction.  Then you'll keep from getting rusty and probably avoid a surprise in your insurance rate when your yearly flight time nose dives for the next rate quote.

This is probably common knowledge for those of you already on basicmed, but I just recently learned there really isn't a denial for basicmed.  So if you've got some issue at exam time nothing goes to the faa, they just don't sign the paper.  Then you can work with your doctors to correct it or if it's something insane just find a less annoying doctor to try again.  I'll happily drive across the border to avoid that kind of stress.

Good luck!

 The more one is around aviation the more one notices being healthy and modern proven evidence based medicine has little to nothing to do with FAA medicals, the medical is a pure administrative feat.

 

If I didn’t fly for a living I would have gone basic med and never looked back

 

Basic is also just as safe as a FAA medical 

BasicVsMedical.pdf

[Hank]

4 hours ago, dkkim73 said:

I took a quick look at Basic Med last night. The big limitation in my mind is to 18,000 ft and below. 

I wonder if this was conceived in terms of where "simple" private flying would end, or if the aeromedical folks made a more specific assessment that high altitude risk factors would be better assessed by AMEs. 

For those instrument rated turbo mafiosi on Basic Med, how did you approach this trade off in your thinking? 

 

Anecdotes show that most turbocharged GA planes are flown below 18,000'.

Why? My guesses are aeromeducal concerns, dislike of oxygen masks, additional complexities in flight planning and different treatment by ATC.

[Rick Junkin]

4 hours ago, dkkim73 said:

I took a quick look at Basic Med last night. The big limitation in my mind is to 18,000 ft and below. 

I wonder if this was conceived in terms of where "simple" private flying would end, or if the aeromedical folks made a more specific assessment that high altitude risk factors would be better assessed by AMEs. 

For those instrument rated turbo mafiosi on Basic Med, how did you approach this trade off in your thinking? 

 

 

4 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

I can easily stay below 18,000, above most of the bumps, get most of the speed, and not be as concerned about oxygen crapping out.  As speeds go up, picking up a few knots at a higher altitude doesn't have much of an effect on time enroute..  According to Foreflight, higher may only pick up a couple of minutes on a flight of a few hours.  I've had all the excitement I need in this lifetime.

I’m with @Fly Boomer on this. My target window is 15,000-17,000. At 15,000 I’m above all of the approach sectors where I fly so I only have center frequencies to change and less interruptions to my XM radio entertainment . I’m also high enough that I have sufficient gliding distance to get to a decent landing spot if I need one. Now flying over the Rockys or Cascades is a different story, but that isn’t my regular playground. The impact out west would be more deliberate planning with terrain elevation more front and center in my route planning.

I’m finding that I’m starting to max out the capabilities of an O2 cannula at decreasing altitude the older I get, and I’ve retired regular use of my full face mask purely for comfort and convenience reasons anyway. As for the speed difference - meh. I fly LOP at a reasonable power setting and am happy to be airborne and really don’t care what time I get anywhere these days. I average about 170KTAS running my engine easy and clean and that’s cool with me. On the other side of this argument I do have the capability to go higher if weather dictates, but those instances would be because I made a misjudgment in my planning or execution monitoring to the point of executing emergency authority. About the only thing I lose staying below 18,000 is the 29.92 “set and forget” for cruise. 

[Paul Thomas]

@Parker_Woodruff Is there any effect on insurance if a pilot choose basic med vs. a 3rd class?

[Matthew P]

16 hours ago, 76Srat said:

I can attest and verify that your experience(s) with the morass that is the FAA medical process/Med"Express" is not your fault.  It is solely and squarely the fault of the FAA in OKC.  Here's a direct quote of a very high up at CAMI OKC on the delays related to all processing of all FAA medical applications:  " . . . lack of overtime possibilities, DRP departures and influx of thousands of ATC applicants".  I know this doesn't and shouldn't make any of us feel any better about this situation, but per Washington DC, all ATC applicants get priority over any other AME/Med"Express"/medical applications because of the optics and politics of it all.  Combine that with the severe shortage of agency personnel who process such applications and we have the nastiness that we all encounter when our applications are either denied or simply delayed without any further explanation.  Here's a quick and dirty example of just how ridiculous this has become (I'm in the process of trying to assist a family friend with what I'm about to describe):

A now-18 year old student pilot applied for a medical via Med"Express" when he was 16 and was denied because of an ADHD prescription written to him when he was . . . five (5) years old.  His parents actually forgot they ever had such prescription written for him back then.  The FAA denied his medical application, as a result (error number one).  When they appealed, the FAA took 6 months to respond, which the FAA then required this family to fly their son from Tulsa to Washingon DC to see the FAA Flight Surgeon.  They tried for over 6 months to get an appointment, only to be given the cold shoulder until one day in the throes of an icy January Friday and they had somehow, magically been given an appointment for the following Tuesday, in DC.  They pull the kid out of school, book last minute flights and had their appointment.  The doc there asked them why they were even seeing him, to which they replied, "we were told we had to do this, if our kid wants to get his medical reconsidered".  The doc then asked, "reconsidered for what?  Did he get denied because of this [the former ADHD 'scrip from 10 years prior]?"  "yes".  Doc's answer:  "This is ridiculous.  Your kid is fine and I'm approving this appeal right now."  This was two years ago, by the way.  

Fast forward to this very day:  Still in limbo in OKC.  The Tulsa-based AME failed to send in the DC Flight Surgeon's paperwork approving this appeal.  When the Tulsa AME did, OKC refused to even confirm receipt, citing (get this) "HPAA regulations prevent us from discussing this matter altogether".  Recall that this kid was originally 16 when all of this started.  He's now 18 and thus an adult, so his parents are now on the outside looking in, and the FAA regional office (Ft Worth) are giving them the ultimate taffy-pull bulls*t response.  

We finally received word back in May that "the file is on the desk of the agent in OKC working this matter and will be processed in queue in June".  This still hasn't moved from where it was two years ago as of this evening.

This isn't a post to throw anyone at the FAA under the bus, but truly what the f*ck??  This is insanity on its finest display.  An applicant can be suicidal, and on meds to curtail same, and as long as they can attest to not being suicidal for at least two years prior to applying, the FAA will automatically approve that applicant's medical.  But this kid, who truly wants to fly and fly for a long time, gets denied for something he was prescribed when he was 5 years old and never filled the 'scrip and never took the meds can't get his damned medical app approved or his appeal worked timely?  Ridiculous.  Beyond ridiculous.

 

 

So, if you read the current reg on permanently disqualifying conditions, being prescribed ANY medications or diagnosis for ADHD is permanently disqualifying, there is NO timeline..if they have ever been diagnosed or prescribed meds for ADHD that's it..doesn't matter how old they were or how long ago it was......doesn't make it right, but right now, that's the way it is.

 

[Jackk]

2 hours ago, Hank said:

Anecdotes show that most turbocharged GA planes are flown below 18,000'.

Why? My guesses are aeromeducal concerns, dislike of oxygen masks, additional complexities in flight planning and different treatment by ATC.

 That and personally if it’s not a pressurized turbine I’ll just stay 10k and below, no desire to suck air out of a hose, and I don’t have much faith in the very complex pressurized piston offerings.

 

 It’s also more fun to follow roads and canyons, love a little ridge running 

[Fly Boomer]

4 hours ago, Rick Junkin said:

I’m also high enough that I have sufficient gliding distance to get to a decent landing spot if I need one.

I didn't mention this above, but it's something I like.  If my engine blows up, and I'm up high, I have lots of time to figure out where to put it.  Of course, the flip side is if I'm on fire, it takes longer to get down.

[Bolter]

4 hours ago, Paul Thomas said:

@Parker_Woodruff Is there any effect on insurance if a pilot choose basic med vs. a 3rd class?

I switched to Basic Med as soon as it was offered, when I was in my mid-40's.  I saw no change in insurance at the time.  My rates appear to be generally static, except for the big jump when changed hull value from a J to an Ovation.  

[Andy95W]

20 hours ago, dkkim73 said:

Just think. Some people want *more* government and bureaucracy

Straw man argument.  Here’s another for you- at the turn of the century, before government regulations, milk vendors would water down the milk and then add chalk powder to make it look like whole milk.  There were no standards for hygiene or quality.

The truth is we all want the regulations we agree with, but despise the ones we don’t.

[dkkim73]

2 hours ago, Andy95W said:

Straw man argument.  Here’s another for you- at the turn of the century, before government regulations, milk vendors would water down the milk and then add chalk powder to make it look like whole milk.  There were no standards for hygiene or quality.

The truth is we all want the regulations we agree with, but despise the ones we don’t.

Not really a straw man. A bit simplistic a post, I'll admit. 

The story that was posted above is way beyond your example in scope. The process of regulating high-risk, high-reward, non normal economic goods like medicine tends to be a ratchet. It only goes one way. More rules, more rules about rules, more process about rules about regulation. More reporting. More businesses generating metrics about the above. More meta-businesses feeding on those. Rules about regulation, and unfunded mandates. Then regulation to "bend the arc" about the meta-picture. 

In the military, this was referred to as a self-licking ice cream cone. 

It's quite arguably the case in medicine. I was being blunt, but it's not a straw man argument in the bigger sense. 

We can argue in person some day over a drink.