Simulated engine-out settings

[dkkim73]

All, 
I was just reading this thread

and thinking about the need to practice simulated engine-out profiles (descent angle, speed). I always try to visualize a return as part of the brief, taking into account runways, winds, etc. 

I'm reading Nato Jaros' engine-out procedures booklet and thinking about what would work well for the Acclaim Type S. Goal is to simulate a similar descent angle ("wire") at Vg (best glide speed) via throttle/RPM settings to practice flying simulated profiles. Obviously this will be different than flight idle with prop full-forward in many cases. 

Any parameters folks have to share with the community? 
DK

ETA: Would ideally simulate whatever would be the best-range settings, which might involve setting the prop finer for a power-off glide. Though I suppose you might have to work out what actually stretches the glide. 

Edited January 4 by dkkim73
clarification re: prop

[Marc_B]

This kinda of thinking was what led me to get my Commercial Rating. Power off 180s, spiral descents, emergency descents…great tools to have in the bag with your aircraft. 

[N201MKTurbo]

I always just pull the throttle to idle. You could practice at altitude with the mixture at ICO. 

Just hope you can actually make a runway and don5 have any hot start issues.

I once shut down an engine during multi training. It took us 20 minutes to get it going again.

[Fritz1]

Very good point, I was wondering about that myself, poh gives numbers for best glide, prop coarse pitch, turbo engines do not take well to rapid power reductions, so my standard procedure is midfield, center of runway 1000 ft 20", pull power to idle, gear down and approach flaps when landing is assured, however, this is babying it, to practice it for real you would have a flight instructor pull the power when you least expect it, preferably from a high power setting, which does not agree with a turbo engine, thoughts?

[Scottknoll]

I did some rough math for the Ovation a few years ago. ~90KIAS = 1.5nm/min (no wind)
10,000’ = 18nm glide (from engine out glide chart).
18nm divided by 1.5nm = 12 min glide.
10,000’ / 12 min = 833’/min

Then I went out and flew 90 knots with gear/flaps/speedbrakes out. Reduced power until I got roughly 800-900’/min descent. Used % power from the Garmin.

I think I came up with about 35% power, hopefully kinder on the engine than full idle. This makes me feel like I’m being gentler on the engine.

So for engine out practice I put everything out and set 35% power. Keeps the power up but gives me the same glide.

I “simulate” putting the gear down and flaps out by reducing power further when necessary.

Might not be the best training reinforcement, since I’m not doing it how I would in a real emergency. But I feel better doing this on a regular basis.

Then again training aircraft routinely go to TBO because they’re flown often and nobody babies those engines

[Jeff Uphoff]

20 hours ago, Scottknoll said:

I think I came up with about 35% power, hopefully kinder on the engine than full idle. This makes me feel like I’m being gentler on the engine.

So for engine out practice I put everything out and set 35% power. Keeps the power up but gives me the same glide.

Out of curiosity, is that 35% relative to the stock M20R 280HP or the O3 STC'd 310HP?

--Up.

[AJ88V]

Worth a look.  Makes a good point that the turn is loser to a 360 than a 180.

I’d guess our Mooneys would perform closer to the Bonanzas in the vid below.

 

[AJ88V]

Fantastic discussion here

 

[midlifeflyer]

 

On 1/4/2025 at 7:52 PM, Scottknoll said:

Then again training aircraft routinely go to TBO because they’re flown often and nobody babies those engines

And I’ve done that type of training with turbos too.  And, as an article I read years ago pointed out, high performance aerobatic airplanes do it multiple times a day. That’s not to say shock cooling is a good thing, but periodic proficiency training should have some kind of priority and may not be as bad as we think.

And even if it is, take the time for power idle be part of a power reduction/cooling sequence.

[Scottknoll]

18 hours ago, Jeff Uphoff said:

Out of curiosity, is that 35% relative to the stock M20R 280HP or the O3 STC'd 310HP?

--Up.

We have the 310HP and the Garmin is programmed for 2700RPM. So it should be based on 310HP.

[Ryan ORL]

7 hours ago, AJ88V said:

Worth a look.  Makes a good point that the turn is loser to a 360 than a 180.

I’d guess our Mooneys would perform closer to the Bonanzas in the vid below.

It would be (and is) just like the Bonanza.  There are practically no scenarios where a turnback is workable in a Mooney, unless you happen to already be on a crosswind before the failure occurs, and there is an intersecting runway available.  (Or similar)

The issue is the very high best glide speed.  Mooneys do have a good glide ratio, but do so at a relatively high speed, which causes the turning circle to be quite large.

Conversely, I still conduct flight training in 172s semi-regularly, and I demonstrate what does and doesn't work for turnbacks in that airplane.  With a 65kt (and practically even lower at typical weights) glide speed, turning back from 600 AGL is fairly easy, and often even results in being high.

[EricJ]

43 minutes ago, Ryan ORL said:

It would be (and is) just like the Bonanza.  There are practically no scenarios where a turnback is workable in a Mooney, unless you happen to already be on a crosswind before the failure occurs, and there is an intersecting runway available.  (Or similar)

It's been done.    He lands well past his point of lift-off.
 

 

 

[AJ88V]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

It's been done.    He lands well past his point of lift-off.

 

That was terrifying!

 

[redbaron1982]

On 1/4/2025 at 5:03 PM, N201MKTurbo said:

I always just pull the throttle to idle. You could practice at altitude with the mixture at ICO.

Is it safe to pull the mixture to ICO? Several months ago I was doing a GAMI spread test and pull the mixture too lean and the engine started to die and the RPMs surge like to 2900 for 1 sec before I push the mixture back in.

I don't know if it is an issue with my airplane or the if after 1 additional second the rpms would have gone down to windmilling... but it did scare the sh**t out of me.

[AJ88V]

Spent a bit of time looking at the environs surrounding Fullerton using Google maps.  Probably about as bad as it gets for clear off-airport places to land.  Even though making the runway in a Mooney would be questionable, it might be that the field still offered the most clear spots to stuff it down right now, even if not making a RWY.

How horrible for the pilot, family, and Fullerton community.  There but for the grace of God....

[Brian2034]

Amazing!
Scary!
Definitely something that needs to be practiced, you always think it won’t be you!

[201Steve]

20 hours ago, Ryan ORL said:

It would be (and is) just like the Bonanza.  There are practically no scenarios where a turnback is workable in a Mooney, unless you happen to already be on a crosswind before the failure occurs, and there is an intersecting runway available.  (Or similar)

To echo Eric, and I don’t know about the long bodies as are being discussed here, EAA did a study on the turn back and sent out a test profile to various type owners. My hangar neighbor participated in his J and was easily making the turn. I believe his min altitude is now 800’ for a turn back attempt. He noted the ability to get prop pulled all the way back made a huge difference and if that were a guarantee (it’s not) the altitude min would be much less. 
 

Anyway, one persons results. I’d bet if you reached out to EAA they would share the data results, organized by type. 

[Hank]

5 hours ago, 201Steve said:

To echo Eric, and I don’t know about the long bodies as are being discussed here, EAA did a study on the turn back and sent out a test profile to various type owners. My hangar neighbor participated in his J and was easily making the turn. I believe his min altitude is now 800’ for a turn back attempt. He noted the ability to get prop pulled all the way back made a huge difference and if that were a guarantee (it’s not) the altitude min would be much less. 
 

Anyway, one persons results. I’d bet if you reached out to EAA they would share the data results, organized by type. 

I thought AOPA Safety had a video with several planes (including a Champ, i think, and a non-Mooney retract) that was illuminating. Didn't @donkaye once post something about this in Mooneys?

I agree, it's amazing the difference that pulling the prop back makes! Going to idle at midfield downwind in my C, I just fly a normal pattern and land as usual, but maybe turn base a little sooner than usual but still at 700 agl. Trying it from a random point approaching the field, it's a different story, better pull the prop back!

[201Steve]

@Hank I remember a video that Richard McSpadden (rip) with AOPA air safety institute put out, they had like a cub, a skyhawk, and a bonanza I think. The takeaway was definitely don’t try it in a bonanza. I think the glide ratio in optimal config is like 10:1 in a no whereas the Mooney is like 13:1 in best config. Don’t quote me on that and it seems glide ratios are clear as mud depending on many variables.  Me personally, I do not care about the airplane whatsoever in the event of an engine failure on takeoff. If I see a field, marsh, maybe even water ahead of me, that’s where I’m going. Having dinner that night is my only concern. Taking off somewhere like PDK in Atlanta, there is nowhere to go. I’d probably take my chances on a turn back at 1,000’ in that scenario. Best case you make the fence. Worst case (assuming you maintain controlled flight) your crashing into a congested road which would have been the case anyway. 
 

just my .02 

[Ryan ORL]

It is not just about glide ratio, it is also about glide speed, which in our airplanes is quite a bit higher than a Skyhawk, Cub, etc.  A very high glide speed makes your turning circle much larger, increasing the difficulty of the maneuver.

[Danb]

The most important factor is responding to the situation in a fast decisive fashion whatever that may be, once committed follow it through. A few years ago I like many of us had a near catastrophic accident. Luckily I managed to get through it, my wife said nothing crickets thank goodness I ultimately gained control of my Bravo close to the fence at the end of the runway about I guess some 100 feet from the ground. I got runaway trim at the absolute worse place. Everything mentioned above has merit seriously luck was my best friend on that day.  Be ready stuff happens when least expected. I go through the items to myself not out loud verbally as to not frighten my passenger but whatever works for you be prepared ready and lucky.

D

[dkkim73]

1 hour ago, Danb said:

... I got runaway trim at the absolute worse place. ... Be ready stuff happens when least expected. I go through the items to myself not out loud verbally as to not frighten my passenger but whatever works for you be prepared ready and lucky.

@Danb Yikes, that sounds pretty scary. I've been impressed with the elevator trim forces on the Acclaim.

IIUC you flew a Bravo and now fly an Acclaim, and I think there are some commonalities. Is your current understanding that the corrective action is to turn off the AP rocker switch? AFAICT that is itself also the breaker for the AP and the elevator trim circuit. Or at least I can't find a labeled accessible 2nd breaker on the plane or a schematic besides the switch itself.

D

[carusoam]

Great discussion!  

 

one important topic to cover…

Trying to restart a TC’d engine after turbo failure…. Broken turbo, or loose hose…

 

if the turbo gives out at altitude…

Suddenly, MP and mixture go into the wrong ratio….

 

There isn’t an easy method to fail the turbo to practice… but reading the procedure should be pretty helpful.

we have a couple of success stories around here…

it helps when you fly around in the FLs…. They get enough energy to get to the next airport….  
 

Let’s see if @aviatoreb is cruising by…

 

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

Also consider…

The modern POH has some additional details that the older POHs lack…

best glide speed is a range… of about 10kias from MGTW, at the fastest… to lightly loaded at the slowest.

 

since this is just practice, not an engineering study….

1) no need to actually turn the engine off…

2) the practice of using judgement skills is key to this exercise…

3) using the check list (memorized aspects) is still important…

 

let’s say…

we’re at altitude gliding as efficiently as possible…

1) Gear stowed 

2) Speed brakes stowed

3) throttle out 

4) prop pulled all the way back

5) We looked up the best glide speed for today’s weight… say 85kias (?) 

6) we are trimmed for 85 kias 

7) what is our descent rate?

8) what happens to our descent rate as we add back…

   - prop full in…

   - gear down…

   - speed brakes…

   - increase speed to Vle….

This is emergency descent configuration….

9) We have gone from descending at about 1kfpm to 6kfpm… 

10) We will be on the ground in under three minutes… no need to experiment with Vne with the gear down or flaps out or adding a slip…

bending the airframe for practice… might get expensive.

11) Remember to check the gear again….

 

 

This is from old memories… not a CFI.

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

 

[Yetti]

There was a guy in Texas that did the impossible turn in a Mooney last year.   Let me see if I can find it.

All my landings are set up to be a power off 180.   Runway about 25% under the wing on downwind.    U turn to land.   With power I just go a bit further out.   If the engine were to quit and would start the U turn immediately

The other thing you really want to have committed to muscle memory is push over on departure if the engine quits.   Go up high set up for Take off and then cut the throttle.   You want your push over to be immediate then worry about best glide once you got the nose pointed down.