Airplanes with similar capability to F/J models

[sreid]

With the factory operating with just a bare bones crew, it's becoming extremely hard to maintain these birds.  Parts seem to be available, but you better be patient and willing to be without an airplane for a very long time.  I hate to say it, but I'm starting to lose the passion for owning my Mooney.  Probably because for 5 months I basically haven't owned an airplane, while I wait for parts that never seem to come despite being months beyond estimated delivery dates.  Oh, I understand that the people that are still there at the factory are doing the best they can with the resources they have available, to keep us in the air.  That doesn't change the fact that my hangar bill still keeps coming due every month, and my annual and static system/transponder inspection dates get closer to expiring every second that clicks by while the plane is parked and I'm not getting any enjoyment out of the pile of money I spent on this plane.

The problem is that I don't know of any planes that have the capability to fly the missions that my Mooney can fly.  It's hard to beat 145 KTAS on < 10 gph, 5+ hours endurance, and 1000lb useful load.  I can load 4 people, camping gear, and 40 gallons of gas, for ~3 hours endurance before stopping for fuel.  Not even the G36 that I fly at work can do this, assuming I even wanted to pay the bloated prices Bonanzas seem to fetch and their thirsty fuel flows.  Anyone have any suggestions of planes to look at with similar capabilities to the F/J models?

Steve

[KSMooniac]

There aren't any, I'm afraid.  I don't have any operational experience, but a Comanche (with a bigger engine) might come close but their part situation is worse than ours.  Ditto for a Viking.

What parts are do you need?

[sreid]

Hi Scott,

I was wondering about Comanches, I also have never flown one, but didn't know about their parts availability.  Being out of production, I guess it's a similar situation, but they've obviously been out of production even longer than M20's.

After a normal landing and shutdown, a careless airport construction crew and 30G40 winds resulted in this conduit spool, pic below, rolling a couple hundred yards and slamming into my wing.  The problem parts are the outboard two skins on the right wing.  The spool was headed directly at the airplane; probably would have totaled it if I hadn't already been near the nose with the towbar in hand, and pushed for all I was worth when I heard it coming.  A little faster and I would have avoided any damage.  Complication is the fact that I have the twist wing and they don't often make these skins.

Steve

[KSMooniac]

Yeah, Comanches were abandoned after the PA plant flooded back in the 70s.  There is a fairly robust aftermarket support group from what I've gathered, but for something like this you might be SOL.  Insurance on them is noticeably higher too, and my understanding is that is because of the parts situation.

That damage doesn't look terminal to me, but perhaps I don't fully understand the implications of the twisted wing.  My suspicion is that a good metal worker *should* be able to fabricate a replacement skin from flat sheet stock.  The sheet spec is somewhere in the service manual for just this scenario.  It doesn't look like any ribs were compromised, either.  Have you solicited a sheet metal savvy A&P?  I think that skin is thin enough to easily form over the ribs and drill/cleco/rivet as you go.

[M20F-1968]

The "twisted wing" really is not "twisted" at all.  The outboard skin is the same as in all other Mooney airplanes.  The forward wing ftip is depressed about 1 1/2" so thbat the outboard skin is aligned differently in relation to the next skin inboard, but the skin itself is still a straight skin.  In other words, you can put a straight edge on the outboard skin and find that the skin is straight.  The skin's leading edge is formed from the factory.  You may be able to find a shop who can make the skin.  Try Beegle's Aircraft in Greeley, CO.  (970) 353-9200   They do only structural repairs, do good work and are well recognized.

John Breda

[M20F-1968]

The "twisted wing" really is not "twisted" at all.  The outboard skin is the same as in all other Mooney airplanes.  The forward wing ftip is depressed about 1 1/2" so thbat the outboard skin is aligned differently in relation to the next skin inboard, but the skin itself is still a straight skin.  In other words, you can put a straight edge on the outboard skin and find that the skin is straight.  The skin's leading edge is formed from the factory.  You may be able to find a shop who can make the skin.  Try Beegle's Aircraft in Greeley, CO.  (970) 353-9200   They do only structural repairs, do good work and are well recognized.

John Breda

[M20F-1968]

The "twisted wing" really is not "twisted" at all.  The outboard skin is the same as in all other Mooney airplanes.  The forward wing ftip is depressed about 1 1/2" so thbat the outboard skin is aligned differently in relation to the next skin inboard, but the skin itself is still a straight skin.  In other words, you can put a straight edge on the outboard skin and find that the skin is straight.  The skin's leading edge is formed from the factory.  You may be able to find a shop who can make the skin.  Try Beegle's Aircraft in Greeley, CO.  (970) 353-9200   They do only structural repairs, do good work and are well recognized.

John Breda

[lamont337]

I have to agree with KSMooniac in that you shouldn't be waiting on the factory, but looking for a mechanic that can fabricate the needed parts. Buy the sheet metal, measure twice... I'm lucky in that I'm very active in my local EAA chapter and know several homebuilders that could make short work of those skins. Of course you'll need a sign off, so get an A&P on board before any work is performed.

[sreid]

I'm committed to a particular shop now.  Plan was to not disasemble until parts were in hand, but due to a complication the airplane was disasembled and we don't have skins in hand.  The skins could be fabricated, but as they were supposedly readily available from the factory we decided to buy the factory part. There is a nose rib that was damaged, but that part is in hand.

Since I'm committed to a particular shop and repair method now, I really just wanted to see if anyone had any ideas on any craft with similar capability.  Not looking good, there isn't really much competition in this class.  Sad to see Mooney's go from a reliable transportation tool to toys, now that timely repairs can't be arranged.

Steve

[Steve65E-NC]

I do not see and torn or fractured metal.  Seems to me the leading edge and rib could have been reformed in place by a good auto body man supervised by an A&P.  Even with the skin removed, assuming the job were done carefully seems you could reshape the leading edge so that no evidence remained.  Given that it is a 45 year old airplane a few little kinks in the leading edge might be expected.

Steve 65E-NC

[sreid]

Steve,

Not sure about that, there's not much room to access the back side when the skin is mounted.  Plus, I'm not really interested in a "git 'er done" repair.  I understand that it's a used airplane, 45 years old, but my approach is that if I'm going to repair it, it needs to be done to factory spec.  If it was a small ding that I decided to defer, that's one thing, but this needed to be addressed, so I wanted it done right.  Regarding reforming the skin once it's removed: once the umpteen rivets are drilled out of both these skins, I doubt anyone, myself included, would be much interested in the many hours of driving rivets to re-install a damaged part!

Steve

[Jerry 5TJ]

I agree with Steve. I would think the skin that is now removed, could easily be repaired and fastened back in position using the original holes.

[nels]

Sorry, that was Nels making the prior post, not Jerry.

[nels]

Sorry, that was Nels making the prior post, not Jerry.

[sreid]

Additionally, since I'm now committed to a particular shop, I'm not going to suggest that they change their method of repair from factory part to fabrication of skin or dent pounding.  That would be like asking a Dr. that always fixes torn ACLs by cadaver allograft to fix yours by opposite knee patellar tendon graft.  Seems like a bad idea to tell an expert to use a method they're not accustomed to using.  Rather I prefer to decide on a method that I want to be used, then find someone who uses that method and leave them to their own devices to do it.  Only hitch in this plan was bad information on parts availability from the factory.

Steve

[jetdriven]

making a new outboard skin should be easy work for a shop that charges 70$ an hour.

[M20F]

Hi Steve - I saw your plane when I dropped mine off, think the shop in question will do you right.

[sreid]

Thanks, yes I'm not worried about the shop!  They will take care of the airplane when they get the parts.  It's just a matter of waiting for things to happen that are outside of my control and the shops control that causes high frustration.  Afraid this will only get worse over time with the state of the factory.  If only someone else made an airplane with the efficiency, speed, cool factor, etc...

[DaV8or]

I know it's too late now to change strategies, but part of the future to keep Mooneys going has to be used parts. Did you consider using used parts? Maybe this would have been a good opportunity to ditch the twisted wing.

[sreid]

Dave,

Not sure if used parts would have been an option here or not.  I got a feeling that all the rivet holes would be in the wrong place.  My 45 year old plane is definitely not 21st century "matched hole components", and I think there is a lot of match drilling required.

Yes, maybe converting to straight wing would have helped, I did think of that, but it seemed like a lot of extra work, not to mention potential fed approval issues.  And initially it looked like parts would be readily available.  If I had known skins would take several months (and still counting), I would have tried to make other arrangements.

Steve

[KSMooniac]

Definitely can't use a used skin from another airplane...those are surely match-drilled in place and will be a little different from plane to plane.

I still maintain that any savvy sheet metal mechanic could replace that skin, especially with it already removed and available for use as a template.  You should lean on the shop to go that route instead of endlessly waiting on Mooney.  It is a simple operation.

[Lood]

If Comanche's are still going strong after being out of production for almost 40 years, just imagine how long we still have with our Mooneys. There's nothing to compare, but if I had to convert, I'd rather go for a Bonanza than a Comanche - they are still being made nad there are lots of them around.
I saw an Ovation a couple of weeks ago that cut a human, running across the runway, in half during landing. It had really bad damage to the leading edges of both the left wing and elevator. Our local sheet metal guy fixed it better than new. Yours should be straight forward.

[aviatoreb]

Quote: sreid

With the factory operating with just a bare bones crew, it's becoming extremely hard to maintain these birds.  Parts seem to be available, but you better be patient and willing to be without an airplane for a very long time.  I hate to say it, but I'm starting to lose the passion for owning my Mooney.  Probably because for 5 months I basically haven't owned an airplane, while I wait for parts that never seem to come despite being months beyond estimated delivery dates.  Oh, I understand that the people that are still there at the factory are doing the best they can with the resources they have available, to keep us in the air.  That doesn't change the fact that my hangar bill still keeps coming due every month, and my annual and static system/transponder inspection dates get closer to expiring every second that clicks by while the plane is parked and I'm not getting any enjoyment out of the pile of money I spent on this plane.

The problem is that I don't know of any planes that have the capability to fly the missions that my Mooney can fly.  It's hard to beat 145 KTAS on < 10 gph, 5+ hours endurance, and 1000lb useful load.  I can load 4 people, camping gear, and 40 gallons of gas, for ~3 hours endurance before stopping for fuel.  Not even the G36 that I fly at work can do this, assuming I even wanted to pay the bloated prices Bonanzas seem to fetch and their thirsty fuel flows.  Anyone have any suggestions of planes to look at with similar capabilities to the F/J models?

Steve

[cujet1]

I fly a Cessna Cardinal RG. I'd be lying to you if I said the performance was the same. The Mooney is faster, climbs much better and so on. Sure, the 177 RG responds very well to mods and you could spend 21K, or more, on mods and have yourself a 157 cruiser. But, you must remember the RG is 300 pounds heavier and has less "real world" HP. Mine will achieve 143Kts true, when light. 135 when heavy, at 8500, 2500RPM, peak egt, 9.5GPH.

As many RG owners are finding out, Cessna does not stock many parts for the RG. They will offer to fabricate them, with long lead times, and stunningly high prices. A recent quote for an incredibly simple and crude nose steering bungee was listed at $30,000. I'm not sure if the post listing that price was a joke, or serious. But, Cessna's prices for older aircraft parts is, without a doubt, in the absurd range.

I see no advantage to an old Cessna, v an old Mooney. Factory support is not there for either.

[DaV8or]

I cannot think of any plane that matches the M20F/J in all perameters. Not even kit planes. In addition to what has been mentioned, the Cirrus SR-20 is in the running as well, but it too does not match up 100%.

The Mooney is unique and if you jump ship, there will be a compromise.