How Many "Touch & Go's" Does It Take To Get To Have A "Landing Incident"?...1?...2?..5?..10?...More?

[1980Mooney]

This reminds me of the late '60s commercial:

On August 8, 2024 the new owner of N4248H, a 1978 M20J, moved his plane from the seller in Kokomo, IN to his base KHAO,  Hamilton, OH.

On October 24, someone flying the plane was practicing Touch & Go's. 

• One, two, three, five....ten!
• On the tenth (10th) "Touch & Go" it did not "Go".....
• The registered owner appears to be 82 years old per internet.
  • FAA Airman shows him with a Private Pilot license dated 12/14/2022 but no Medical
• The cryptic report says "Veered off runway" and "Main gear collapsed".
  • Perhaps when it shows up at a salvage auction more can be learned of the real order/circumstances

 

https://www.asias.faa.gov/apex/f?p=100:96:10092349662185::::P96_ENTRY_DATE,P96_MAKE_NAME,P96_FATAL_FLG:04-NOV-24,MOONEY

https://www.aircraft.com/aircraft/234670793/n4248h-1978-mooney-m20j-201

https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/N4248H

https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=a50df3&lat=39.370&lon=-84.511&zoom=14.3&showTrace=2024-10-24&trackLabels&timestamp=1729806383

 

 

 

 

[N201MKTurbo]

I’ve done hundreds.

Haven't crashed yet….

Seems like a basic skill.

[1980Mooney]

5 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I’ve done hundreds.

Haven't crashed yet….

Seems like a basic skill.

You are probably not 82 yet…..

[N201MKTurbo]

Not yet, but I can see it. Hope I’m still flying. 
 

[MikeOH]

44 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

You are probably not 82 yet…..

So, what's your point?

[Skates97]

I've done hundreds, including one flight to 13 different airports with 12 touch-n-go's. The only full stop was back at my home base where I started. Still haven't messed one up yet...

https://intothesky.com/2023/09/23/epic-flight-13-airports-in-under-2-hours/

[Hank]

1 hour ago, 1980Mooney said:

You are probably not 82 yet…..

One of my life's goals is to become a UFO. It's doesn't appear to be a very active group, but I bet their lunches are great fun!

Oh, I've done more TnG's than I care to think about, with and without CFI / CFII aboard. Even did one as a freshly-minted pilot with my mother, who as a Marine wife was so excited to finally do one, having seen so many done for 23 years.

[kortopates]

I am looking forward to being a UFO!!!
No touch and goes here, never saw the point in it. But i’ve done plenty of go arounds from before touching and after touching but would much rather spend my time doing approaches, and other maneuvers like power off landings other different kinds of landings and takeoffs i put my students through on a Wings flight review.
But what others do is up to them. Just never saw the point after learning the sight picture and i am flying most every day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

But what others do is up to them. Just never saw the point after learning the sight picture and i am flying most every day.

I can see that perspective for as much flying as you do.

I find that, despite having learned the sight picture, if I'm only making one landing per flight I tend to notice the quality of my landings suffers a bit; especially if I'm not flying often.  When that happens I find it valuable to perform a few T&Gs and get 'back in the groove'.

It works for me but, as you say, 'what others do is up to them'.

[Hank]

11 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

I can see that perspective for as much flying as you do.

I find that, despite having learned the sight picture, if I'm only making one landing per flight I tend to notice the quality of my landings suffers a bit; especially if I'm not flying often.  When that happens I find it valuable to perform a few T&Gs and get 'back in the groove'.

It works for me but, as you say, 'what others do is up to them'.

I did a number of them in Instrument training, and still do one or two during IPCs when I've not been flying actual much (fly approach to minimums, remove foggles, touch and go and head off for next airport). Sometimes even during Flight Reviews. 

But I don't just head out to the field and do TnGs. But a round robin flight to several airports, a TnG adds variety to just another missed approach. Especially if a field is "different"--uphill, downhill, midfield hump or dip, anything you don't see often. Keeps things interesting, and can be challenging (like one CFI's home field, 2440' long, watch the hump and the tree on short final, but it was full stop--I like 5000' for TnG so that I can raise the flaps and paw at the trim wheel).

[JohnB]

I would say I have done a more than a plethora of touch and goes, landing practices without incident. However, one day, I was practicing a bunch of precision power off landings, with touch and goes in a simulator, while the instructor was randomly changing the wind conditions without telling what they were to add more challenge. On one of the landings, although it was a perfect landing touchdown within tolerance with a ridiculous crosswind (I think he put in 30 knots), I had a gear up in the simulator. Of course its just a sim, and only requires a reset, but that experience terrified and humbled the bejeezus out of me and made me realize that no matter what, a gear up is possible if there are enough distractions. This fear I think improved my Gear gear gear gear gear checklist though! 

[Hank]

4 hours ago, JohnB said:

This fear I think improved my Gear gear gear gear gear checklist though! 

That's what the GUMPS check is for:

• Gear down
• Undercarriage down
• Make sure the gear is down.
• Put the gear down!
• Sh!t, is the gear down?!

This type of valuable learning experience is exactly what simulators are for. I've rarely made more than the three consecutive landings for night currency.

[A64Pilot]

I’ve done hundreds mostly during training. I imagine with as much helicopter time as I have I have way more landings than normal.

I have more tailwheel than nose dragger time too, and there the concern is ground loops, it really does require more skill to land a tail dragger and once you feel comfortable in one I believe it makes nose dragger landings much easier. Most all of my touch and goes are in my tail dragger just because they are more challenging.

Back in the day as in 40 or more years ago when there was sheds lot more flying going on people would go to the airport just to do touch and goes. I guess it was just something to do, or maybe everyone else did so they did too. Or maybe there were many more new pilots as a percentage of the population back then? Or maybe as landing was the most critical phase of flying that it was practiced the most? I don’t know why but it wasn’t uncommon at all for several to be in the pattern just doing touch and goes back then.

I can see the argument in a complex airplane to not do touch and goes as it wears the gear, but if you feel that you should brush up on your landing skills, then I think you should go out and do some, but just as an excuse to fly, maybe not.

The argument that there are some accidents that occur with touch and goes, so therefore you shouldn’t do them, is as logical as saying that the aircraft should never leave the hangar, because flying causes accidents, in my opinion.

From what I have read the overwhelming majority of landing accidents come from pilots that apparently don’t have good skills, and when I watch Mooney’s landing it seems that there are quite a few that would benefit from the practice as I watch them float down half the runway then touch down in a three point and often bounce and have directional control issues. Those seem to be where the accidents come from, perhaps they should be doing touch and goes until they become proficient?

From this accident as accidents almost never have one cause but a chain of causes I’d bet age was a contributing factor but I bet lack of recent experience was also and maybe others like weather, fatigue who knows? Plus once in a blue moon, we all make stupid mistakes for no apparent reason, the FAA years ago commissioned a study to determine why and never could, just came up with the acronym of SLOJ or sudden loss of judgement and I bet as I grow older the likelihood of SLOJ striking increases.

We all are subject to things like trying to walk through a door that opens the other way etc

 

Edited November 8 by A64Pilot

[ProtoFly]

Maybe the new owner had insurance requirements for a certain number of take offs and landings.  I purchased my M20F around that timeframe, from the same place.  My insurance required 20 landings to a full stop, 10 hours of instruction, and then 2 hours of solo before I met requirements.  The first weekend with the plane was a LOT of full-stop-taxi-back landings.  Coming from my 1969 Cherokee, it was obvious why I would need that.  

I could totally see that a new owner with a decent number of hours might be tempted to do a bunch of touch-n-go's, rather than full-stop landings with a taxi-back...

[Immelman]

My logbook shows 1697 Mooney landings.

I estimate conservatively that half were tough and go, if not more.

So 850, and counting, without incident. Including 2 the day before yesterday.

[jetdriven]

There’s got to be some reason why the Bonanza proficiency clinics and the Mooney safety foundation clinics don’t do them.

[Hank]

7 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

There’s got to be some reason why the Bonanza proficiency clinics and the Mooney safety foundation clinics don’t do them.

You mean other than a general worry / fear about liability and lawsuits? I can't sue myself . . . .

[EricJ]

53 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

There’s got to be some reason why the Bonanza proficiency clinics and the Mooney safety foundation clinics don’t do them.

Because of liability to those organizations.   It's just a risk reduction measure, perhaps for their insurance.   That doesn't mean it's a real risk, but they or their insurance feels safer that way.

When I did my Mooney transition training (which was only two hours), we did a bunch of touch-and-goes and all kinds of landings, but never raised the gear during pattern work.   That was that particular instructor's method to reduce risk for himself.

[Aaviationist]

I have my gear light on my airplane integrated into my modern avionics with full ADSB capability. 
 

haven’t had an issue and I do A LOT of touch and goes.