Average Annual Cost?

[GeneralT001]

I'm in Canada and am hearing anything from $5K to 8K for a yearly annual. Please tell me its cheaper in the US of A?

[Ragsf15e]

2 minutes ago, GeneralT001 said:

I'm in Canada and am hearing anything from $5K to 8K for a yearly annual. Please tell me its cheaper in the US of A?

Too many variables to say for sure.  You want a top shop, all squawks fixed, zero owner help?  It’s likely more.  You want owner assisted, in your hangar, local IA, it might be $1500.

Mine at a local shop in Washington with me doing all the opening and closing of all panels (that’s a lot of screws) has been ~$2500 for just the inspection.  Squawks extra of course.  I believe the inspection is about 35-40 hours on the Mooney checklist, so maybe im wrong and it’s a bit more $$ (remember, im doing a good bit of the work).  My shop is at $120/hr.

[AJ88V]

That's consistent with my experience, but I've been with the same shop for over a decade.  Any new shop is going to be extra cautious because they'll be signing off on a plane they've never seen before and, well if anything bad happens in the air, the maintenance records will be the first thing the authorities go for

[MikeOH]

My experience over 6 annuals has been between $3000 and $7500.  Obviously, those variations were caused by the amount of repairs necessary as well as different shop rates.  All of them are California prices, so there's that!

Basic inspection for my "F" model is 20 to 24 hours with shop rates that have ranged from $95 (local to me shop) to $145 (Top Gun), so you can see just the inspection is over $2000.

[MikeOH]

23 minutes ago, AJ88V said:

That's consistent with my experience, but I've been with the same shop for over a decade.  Any new shop is going to be extra cautious because they'll be signing off on a plane they've never seen before and, well if anything bad happens in the air, they maintenance records will be the first thing the authorities go for

Hmm, I've deliberately used a different shop each year (used two shops twice each, but not consecutive years) and didn't find any signs of any one of them being 'extra cautious' because they've not seen the plane before.  I like this approach because a different set of eyes and maintenance approach takes a look...I've been happy with the results. YMMV.

[Skates97]

When pricing annuals there is the inspection fee and then the cost of fixing anything that needs to be fixed. Sometimes people lump everything together and say they had a $5-10k annual. They really didn't, they had an inspection that was $xxxx and then other things that are either regular maintenance which was deferred to annual time and/or needed repairs deferred to annual or found during annual. Sometimes people even include optional items in the total annual price which is also misleading. I've always thought when people are quoting how much they paid for annual they should split the two items up.

I've always done owner assist. The inspection runs $650, then add in the regular maintenance and any repairs, upgrades etc...

[MikeOH]

@Skates97

$650 for the inspection!!  WOW!!  I've always done 'turn-key' annuals but now that I'm retired that price looks mighty attractive!

How many days/hours do you spend on 'owner assist' time?

[hammdo]

Owner assisted was ok until the recent FAA MOSS interpretation changed all of that…

-Don

[MikeOH]

1 minute ago, hammdo said:

Owner assisted was ok until the recent FAA MOSS interpretation changed all of that…

-Don

Yeah, I am assuming that will get rescinded...watched an interview with Mike Busch last night.  He's not the only one fired up over that disastrous memorandum!  I think the FAA will come to their sense with this one.

[hammdo]

Yep, saw that too. Crazy they made that a ‘rule’

-Don

[AJ88V]

 

17 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

@Skates97

$650 for the inspection!!  WOW!!  I've always done 'turn-key' annuals but now that I'm retired that price looks mighty attractive!

How many days/hours do you spend on 'owner assist' time?

I spent 4 days early this month, but realistically it was only two for the owner assist.

Also, I did use another shop that was giving me annuals on the range of $8500 the first time (which I chalked up to a new set of eyes) that followed with a $7500, where I realized they were raking me.  Yes, the work was excellent, but they insisted on fixes that I would have easily lived with (coming from someone who is not an A&P, but is a former motorcycle mechanic and current shadetree mechanic).  And this was maybe 12-15 years ago, so those dollars were a lot more valuable.

[AJ88V]

34 minutes ago, hammdo said:

Owner assisted was ok until the recent FAA MOSS interpretation changed all of that…

-Don

Since I had to look that one up! 

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/business-aviation/2024-09-24/faa-interpretation-disallows-remote-mx-supervision

I'm not entirely sure this affects most situations with an owner-assist.  I would expect the supervisor to be able to directly inspect physically.

• "The request for interpretation was submitted by Jonathan Moss, manager of the FAA’s Flight Standards District Office in Little Rock, Arkansas. Moss asked “whether a supervisor must be physically present at the site of the maintenance, or if he may supervise remotely, through Zoom, FaceTime, live feed TV, photographs, downloadable video, or other electronic means. Assuming remote supervision is allowed, [he] then asked if the supervising mechanic would be allowed to provide the documentation for return to service electronically.”

FWIW, most of what I did was opening and closing panels and cleaning out %^%#$ birds nests (ughhhh!).  Besides doing a lot of general cleaning that I wouldn't necessarily expect an A&P to do, I reinstalled all the inspection panel and belly panel screws with a little anti-seize compound to make it easier next time.

[Paul Thomas]

I have a fantastic AI and my annual inspection is $1,500.

Maintenance and annual are two different things, even if they often end up on the same bill.

[EricJ]

FWIW, if you read the Moss letter it basically just says that virtual remote supervision can't be done, and that the usual "in person" supervision that has been done for decades must be relied on. 

In other words, it's business as usual unless you wanted your IA to supervise your annual over the phone or via zoom or something.

That's my read on it, anyway.    I think the pushback is mostly to help prevent people over-interpreting it, which seems to be the usual practice when it comes to this sort of thing.

[Sue Bon]

Come to Switzerland! It's much cheaper here!

Narrator: Sue was lying, of course. She's actually crying in her coffee reading about $650 annuals. 

 

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, GeneralT001 said:

I'm in Canada and am hearing anything from $5K to 8K for a yearly annual. Please tell me its cheaper in the US of A?

When you say $5-8 K, is that in Canadian dollars?  That is $3.75 - 6 K in the US.  25-27 shop hours is pretty standard for the basic Annual.  Shop rates are easily $100/hour - some more.  And then you have materials, filters, oil, and something usually needs adjustment or repair.  And there may be taxes.

If your number is CAD then it seems in range.  I forget what you previously flew but retractable gear Mooney increases the Annual about $1K compared to a fixed gear 4-cly Cessna.

[hammdo]

The bigger issue was the part where unlicensed mechanic had to have supervision and that supervisor had to watch ‘and take over immediately’ if something was being done wrong. That super had to be watching the whole time in case of error…

That was the bigger takeaway…

-Don

[1980Mooney]

3 hours ago, GeneralT001 said:

I'm in Canada and am hearing anything from $5K to 8K for a yearly annual. Please tell me its cheaper in the US of A?

If you search on Google and type "site:mooneyspace.com annual cost", you will get 2-3 pages of MooneySpace topics on Annual Cost and then followed by about another 5 pages of MooneySpace topics on Operating Cost.

[N201MKTurbo]

All I do is owner assisted annuals or working with another A&P who is not an IA. 
 

It is a lot easier working with another A&P because I don’t have to supervise the work. 
 

In either case I’m required to do all the inspections. This has caused issues with a few A&Ps. I showed up one day to do inspections and the wheels were back on the plane. I said I need to inspect the wheel bearings. The A&P said he already cleaned and repacked them and he said the bearings were fine. He said he was qualified to do all that. I told him that that is all true, but for me to sign off the inspection, I have to inspect them. He got really pissed, but he finally relented and took them back apart.

[PT20J]

There are several components to what we generally refer to as an "annual inspection."

1. Opening up the airplane to permit inspection and closing afterwards.

2. Servicing (changing oil, lubricating, cleaning, etc.) 

3. Inspection 

4. Repairing any items found unairworthy during the inspection.

5. Completing any other maintenance items desired. 

Items 1 and 2 are preventive maintenance and do not require supervision.

Item 3 must be done by the IA and cannot be delegated to another person.

Items 4 and 5 are maintenance and require an A&P to sign off. These can be done by a non-A&P owner if appropriately supervised. Obviously, remote video supervision is pushing it even before the MOSS interpretation. How closely the A&P supervises is dependent on the comfort level of the A&P, the mechanical skill of the owner and their relationship.

I have done supervised maintenance in the mechanic's hangar and I have done it in my hangar with the mechanic's hangar a short walk away. In all cases we discuss the project beforehand and work out at what points he wants to check on the progress. And, he is always readily available if something unforeseen comes up. This seems to work well for everyone.

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

FWIW, if you read the Moss letter it basically just says that virtual remote supervision can't be done, and that the usual "in person" supervision that has been done for decades must be relied on. 

In other words, it's business as usual unless you wanted your IA to supervise your annual over the phone or via zoom or something.

That's my read on it, anyway.    I think the pushback is mostly to help prevent people over-interpreting it, which seems to be the usual practice when it comes to this sort of thing.

@EricJ

See @hammdo's post.  The issue is this Moss memorandum now REQUIRES constant supervision!!  It is NOT business as usual; it's way more restrictive than just saying you can't supervise remotely.  I think the key cogent parts of the memorandum are, "The certificated mechanic must be available, not just to answer questions, but to notice mistakes and take over if necessary", and "In other words, mechanics must be able to physically intervene at every step of the process".  I don't see how that can be accomplished now without the A&P standing over the non-certificated employee performing the work!

Sorry, but this seems pretty draconian to me.  I think many A&Ps are going to feel the same way and there is going to be a very chilling and expensive effect if the FAA doesn't rectify this pretty damn quick.

[MikeOH]

23 minutes ago, PT20J said:

How closely the A&P supervises is dependent on the comfort level of the A&P, the mechanical skill of the owner and their relationship.

I have done supervised maintenance in the mechanic's hangar and I have done it in my hangar with the mechanic's hangar a short walk away. In all cases we discuss the project beforehand and work out at what points he wants to check on the progress. And, he is always readily available if something unforeseen comes up. This seems to work well for everyone.

@PT20J

THAT is the way it USED to be before this memorandum!

It is no longer "dependent on the comfort level of the A&P" but dictated to be 100% supervision at all times!  How else would the A&P be able to "physically intervene at every step of the process?"

Yeah, I'm just SGOTI, but if you listen to the Mike Busch interview from Social Flight he feels the same way, as do the AOPA and several other organizations he has been in contact with since this memorandum was issued.

[AJ88V]

25 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

@PT20J

THAT is the way it USED to be before this memorandum!

It is no longer "dependent on the comfort level of the A&P" but dictated to be 100% supervision at all times!  How else would the A&P be able to "physically intervene at every step of the process?"

Yeah, I'm just SGOTI, but if you listen to the Mike Busch interview from Social Flight he feels the same way, as do the AOPA and several other organizations he has been in contact with since this memorandum was issued.

I haven't seen the Busch interview (major respect, BTW), but it did seem like over-reaction in the article I linked.

On the other hand, maybe over-reaction is EXACTLY what is called for.  Once the memo says you have to be there in-person to supervise (imminently reasonable), it's open to interpretation what "being there" and "supervise" actually mean.  It's the result of our absurdly litigious society.  It's why police officers simultaneously want to wear bodycams and don't want to wear bodycams.  It's why military brass want a remote control on every sergeant and 2nd looey.  It's why the stupidest stuff in the government takes forever because the consequences can be severe even when the risks are minuscule. <end /rant>

[PT20J]

41 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

@PT20J

THAT is the way it USED to be before this memorandum!

It is no longer "dependent on the comfort level of the A&P" but dictated to be 100% supervision at all times!  How else would the A&P be able to "physically intervene at every step of the process?"

Yeah, I'm just SGOTI, but if you listen to the Mike Busch interview from Social Flight he feels the same way, as do the AOPA and several other organizations he has been in contact with since this memorandum was issued.

I think it depends on the complexity of the maintenance. Replacing a battery relay is different from overhauling an engine. The former can easily be inspected after the work is done to ensure it was done properly. The latter could not. If the A&P is willing to sign the logbook, that's all that is required.

It seems most likely that this interpretation was written because someone wanted to use remote supervision - probably one licensed mechanic supervising a bunch of unlicensed mechanics at one or more facilities, and the FAA wanted to prevent it. The request for the interpretation was initiated by the manager of the Little Rock FSDO.

In our world, there is a shortage of A&Ps and most larger shops hire unlicensed mechanics to "work under supervision" while obtaining the experience necessary to get their certificate. You can bet that each unlicensed mechanic does not have a licensed one shadowing every move they make. This will get fixed. It's an unintended consequence of trying to stop a dumb idea.

[hammdo]

Over interpretation and overstepping the original question on remote supervision…

BTW, Drs do remote operations - of course not to supervise unlicensed docs - I don’t think?  ;o)

-Don