Panel upgrade - do I have to go Garmin?

[Max Clark]

I’m in escrow for an Ovation2 DX.

The plane has been updated with an EDM 730 engine monitor and Avidyne IFD 540 + 440 Nav Coms (first photo). While trying to not go stir crazy waiting in escrow I’ve been researching options for updating the panel.

I keep running into two issues:

1. Integrated Autopilot support
2. MFD options for the right seat

To summarize:

• Garmin 275 / G5 will drive the KFC autopilot, but will not take a feed from the IFDs (not listed on Garmin’s website as supported at least)
• Dynon HDX integrates great with the IFD, but I’m reading all sorts of mixed things about IFD -> Dynon -> KFC issues
• Dynon has not certified their autopilot for Mooney (who knows when)
• Dynon does not have a portrait MFD that will fit in front on the right seat

I’ve only been able to come up with three options:

1. Leave everything as is (I’m actually looking forward to flying with the 6 pack this summer while transitioning)
2. Replace the vacuum driven instruments with an Aspen PFD/MFD (questions on this below)
3. Redo everything with G3x, G5, GTN, and GFC 500 (awesome but pricey)

TLDR; Questions on the Aspen (esp. if you have one):

1. An Evolution E5 Dual Electronic lists at $5k - am I going to regret not adding a MFD?
2. I’ve read posts that the Aspen MFD cannot get full details from the IFD due to interface limitations - is this accurate?
3. Besides the vacuum removal, having an integrated GPSS is a big plus - does the Aspen provide enough sensitivity for LPV approaches?
4. Is this just a waste of money and time, should I just wait until I can do the Garmin?
5. Anyone have any secret news on Dynon autopilot I should consider?

Thanks!

[FlyWalt]

Soooooo as I am looking at your photos I am assuming that your current panel is the bottom one with the analog King attitude and HSI. If it were me, I wouldn't touch anything and fly with it, exactly as it is. For one, I LOVE Avidyne and see it as far superior to the competing Garmin products. Secondly, I used to fly 4 to 9 legs a day at a commuter with those King analog instruments. Mostly crap Northeast weather. I am so comfortable with your current panel. And you do not spend a dime more on anything.

[Falcon Man]

I have used the Avidyne  540/440 in my 252, and a friend's Ovation and they are compatable with the Garmin products you have mentioned. Having flown both the Garmin and Avidyne navigators, I prefer the Avidyne equipment. I agree that your current panel is more than adequate.

[Max Clark]

1 hour ago, FlyWalt said:

Soooooo as I am looking at your photos I am assuming that your current panel is the bottom one with the analog King attitude and HSI. If it were me, I wouldn't touch anything and fly with it, exactly as it is. For one, I LOVE Avidyne and see it as far superior to the competing Garmin products. Secondly, I used to fly 4 to 9 legs a day at a commuter with those King analog instruments. Mostly crap Northeast weather. I am so comfortable with your current panel. And you do not spend a dime more on anything.

That’s so weird - was uploaded first and ended up last. Yes it’s the bottom with the King Attitude and HSI.

I’ve been flying G1000 for the last year, there are certain things that are just easier to do so that’s what’s in my mind.

[Max Clark]

1 hour ago, Falcon Man said:

I have used the Avidyne  540/440 in my 252, and a friend's Ovation and they are compatable with the Garmin products you have mentioned. Having flown both the Garmin and Avidyne navigators, I prefer the Avidyne equipment. I agree that your current panel is more than adequate.

My issue isn’t the 540/440 features - they’re a great product. My issue is if I end up with Garmin for everything else, it won’t make sense to keep them.

[McMooney]

why wouldn't it make sense to keep them, they do the same things.   you may miss 1 or 2 minor features, are they worth the massive expense ?

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, Max Clark said:

My issue isn’t the 540/440 features - they’re a great product. My issue is if I end up with Garmin for everything else, it won’t make sense to keep them.

If you look at Avidyne's STC, the GI275s have been added to their STC. Join http://avidynelive.com/.

The Dynon autopilot will not be certified for long body Mooneys so cross that off the list. That's good news since your KFC225 was a $50,000+ autopilot and flies on rails when it is set up correctly. The Dynon one is a few thousand and comes over from the experimental world. 

I would stick with option one and then see what happens as long as everything is working. Then maybe a couple GI-275s (or maybe 3 for an certified engine monitor)

 

One thing you will have to address, and it should be first since when they go, the airplane is grounded, is the Moritz engine gauges - they will fail one at a time and it will require a certified replacement (JPI 730 is not certified, just additional information): JPI930, 900 or an EI MVP-50 or a Garmin EIS. There is no other way around it since: 1)  the Moritz gauges do fail, all of them eventually and 2) there is no support available.

Any airplane that I've looked at since 2009 that had Moritz gauges I have always subtracted $10,000 and now it would be more than $12,000 since with most engine gauge upgrades it requires a new panel.

[PT20J]

New-to-you used airplanes can have a lot of unexpected expenses the first year or two. Personally, I would not replace anything that works until I was pretty sure I had all the bugs worked out. 

Garmin doesn't approve the IFD on it's STC, so it is a discussion with an installer as to whether it violates the Garmin STC to interface it with the IFD. That said, there are a lot of such installations out there and they seem to work fine.

The central decision point is the autopilot. If you want a GFC 500 you must have a Garmin primary PFD (G3X, GI 275, G5) because unlike legacy autopilots that had a separate computer, the GFC places most of the software in the PFD. If you want to keep the current autopilot, you have more options. So many owners have been replacing the KAP/KFC autopilots with GFC 500s that used parts are available and there are two or three good shops that still know how to service them. So, you can probably keep one running for another ten years. Maybe. But the GFC is a great autopilot.

Skip

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, Max Clark said:

My issue isn’t the 540/440 features - they’re a great product. My issue is if I end up with Garmin for everything else, it won’t make sense to keep them.

I'm not sure about that.   I've seen a fair number of very good panels driven by IFDs, including Garmin glass.   I'm another one that prefers the IFDs to Garmin navigators, and my IFD drives Garmin G5s, which isn't super-sophisticated, but is very capable.   Likewise GI275s or even Garmin glass or Aspens or whatever can be driven by IFDs.   The IFDs can drive anything that a GNS can drive, plus some additional stuff.

[McMooney]

I actually went g5's instead of the 275's just so i would have everything for the g3x

[Schllc]

One thing to consider is that generally the market appears to prefers garmin.  
I am NOT denigrating aspen, avidyne or dynon.    
I do not care for the aspen, but have never used avidyne or dynon gps so I can’t speak to their function.  Aspen is too much packed on to too small a a screen, and it doesn’t seem to be well organized. Again, my opinion…

But the day will eventually come that you want to sell the plane and more people seem to prefer garmin. 
avidyne seems to be a little cheaper, and dynon seems a lot cheaper, but neither have an autopilot and integration of a good autopilot is the core of any good panel. 
I wouldn’t consider anything but garmin, but take that advice for what you paid for it…

[Max Clark]

2 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

One thing you will have to address, and it should be first since when they go, the airplane is grounded, is the Moritz engine gauges - they will fail one at a time and it will require a certified replacement (JPI 730 is not certified, just additional information): JPI930, 900 or an EI MVP-50 or a Garmin EIS. There is no other way around it since: 1)  the Moritz gauges do fail, all of them eventually and 2) there is no support available.

Yeah - and then there's that. 275 integrated with the IFD is something I had thought about.

3x 275s with the IFD 540/440 and KFC 225

or right back into the full G3x based pannel

[Max Clark]

2 hours ago, PT20J said:

New-to-you used airplanes can have a lot of unexpected expenses the first year or two. Personally, I would not replace anything that works until I was pretty sure I had all the bugs worked out. 

Garmin doesn't approve the IFD on it's STC, so it is a discussion with an installer as to whether it violates the Garmin STC to interface it with the IFD. That said, there are a lot of such installations out there and they seem to work fine.

The central decision point is the autopilot. If you want a GFC 500 you must have a Garmin primary PFD (G3X, GI 275, G5) because unlike legacy autopilots that had a separate computer, the GFC places most of the software in the PFD. If you want to keep the current autopilot, you have more options. So many owners have been replacing the KAP/KFC autopilots with GFC 500s that used parts are available and there are two or three good shops that still know how to service them. So, you can probably keep one running for another ten years. Maybe. But the GFC is a great autopilot.

Skip

Seems like the options are a) keep the KFC 225 and then that basically makes all the decisions for you, or b) switch to the GFC 500 which also makes all the decisions for you

[Max Clark]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

I'm not sure about that.   I've seen a fair number of very good panels driven by IFDs, including Garmin glass.   I'm another one that prefers the IFDs to Garmin navigators, and my IFD drives Garmin G5s, which isn't super-sophisticated, but is very capable.   Likewise GI275s or even Garmin glass or Aspens or whatever can be driven by IFDs.   The IFDs can drive anything that a GNS can drive, plus some additional stuff.

I haven't seen anything that the G5s will take the IFDs. Is this "it's not blessed but it works" kinda thing?

[Max Clark]

1 hour ago, McMooney said:

I actually went g5's instead of the 275's just so i would have everything for the g3x

So I need to find someone who has G5s and IFDs I can chat with then

[Max Clark]

1 hour ago, Schllc said:

One thing to consider is that generally the market appears to prefers garmin.  
I am NOT denigrating aspen, avidyne or dynon.    
I do not care for the aspen, but have never used avidyne or dynon gps so I can’t speak to their function.  Aspen is too much packed on to too small a a screen, and it doesn’t seem to be well organized. Again, my opinion…

But the day will eventually come that you want to sell the plane and more people seem to prefer garmin. 
avidyne seems to be a little cheaper, and dynon seems a lot cheaper, but neither have an autopilot and integration of a good autopilot is the core of any good panel. 
I wouldn’t consider anything but garmin, but take that advice for what you paid for it…

I understand/agree with your point

A single Aspen would be the cheapest way into glass, remove the vacuum system, and not be a terrible waste if I got rid of it down the road

[LANCECASPER]

1 minute ago, Max Clark said:

Seems like the options are a) keep the KFC 225 and then that basically makes all the decisions for you, or b) switch to the GFC 500 which also makes all the decisions for you

The beauty of the GI275s is that they will interface with the KFC225 to start and later down the road they will interface with the GFC500 or whatever Garmin comes up with down the road. One thing to keep in mind is that the G3X has been out awhile and there have been a lot of rumors about its replacement.

Unless something isn't working, time is your friend, fly for six months to a year and get used to the airplane. Avionics keep advancing which is good news, but the time for "obsolescence" keeps decreasing. (Example - there are thousands of airplanes still flying with 40 year old King KX-170 nav/com radios. You can bet that 40 years won't be so kind for software/processor/display based avionics.)

[LANCECASPER]

15 minutes ago, Max Clark said:

I haven't seen anything that the G5s will take the IFDs. Is this "it's not blessed but it works" kinda thing?

G5s are also in the Avidyne STC - completely legal installation. But a G5 attitude indicator won't work with your KFC225.

[Schllc]

15 minutes ago, Max Clark said:

I understand/agree with your point

A single Aspen would be the cheapest way into glass, remove the vacuum system, and not be a terrible waste if I got rid of it down the road

Personally I wouldn’t want the downtime or expense of doing a panel twice.  Cash flow can make it challenging but if able, I would advise you to do it everything you want at the same time if at all possible.   
nothing is more frustrating than when you are aog.

[EricJ]

26 minutes ago, Max Clark said:

I haven't seen anything that the G5s will take the IFDs. Is this "it's not blessed but it works" kinda thing?

Totally legit.   I have an IFD 540 and two G5s.   It'll drive GI275s as well, which may be more compatible with your autopilot.   Regardless, shops are notorious for telling you that you can only do what they want to install.

 

[toto]

15 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

One thing to keep in mind is that the G3X has been out awhile and there have been a lot of rumors about its replacement.

Since I'm less than six months into my G3X Touch ownership, I hope they won't be replacing it too soon

The G3X Touch was just released for certified aircraft in 2019, and given Garmin's history with certified panel mount units, I would expect this to be halfway through a ten-year product cycle.  (I know that the Touch was available for experimental before it became available for certified aircraft, but still - these retrofits are expensive, and even scheduling an install can take a year.)

 

[McMooney]

51 minutes ago, Max Clark said:

I haven't seen anything that the G5s will take the IFDs. Is this "it's not blessed but it works" kinda thing?

it's in the avidyne install manual

[Max Clark]

43 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

The beauty of the GI275s is that they will interface with the KFC225 to start and later down the road they will interface with the GFC500 or whatever Garmin comes up with down the road. One thing to keep in mind is that the G3X has been out awhile and there have been a lot of rumors about its replacement.

Unless something isn't working, time is your friend, fly for six months to a year and get used to the airplane. Avionics keep advancing which is good news, but the time for "obsolescence" keeps decreasing. (Example - there are thousands of airplanes still flying with 40 year old King KX-170 nav/com radios. You can bet that 40 years won't be so kind for software/processor/display based avionics.)

Unless something forces my hand, I'm not doing anything for 12-14 months.

I agree, lots can happen in that time

[Max Clark]

31 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Totally legit.   I have an IFD 540 and two G5s.   It'll drive GI275s as well, which may be more compatible with your autopilot.   Regardless, shops are notorious for telling you that you can only do what they want to install.

 

what autopilot?

[EricJ]

18 minutes ago, Max Clark said:

what autopilot?

If the bottom pic is your airplane it looks like there's a KFC225 at the bottom of the stack, just under the IFD440.