Struggling to get complex hours before ownership

[SilentT]

That's the title says I'm struggling to get complex hours before becoming an owner, none of the flight schools around me carry complex aircraft anymore. This is mostly due to the removal of the requirement for complex to single engine commercial and other routes being more appealing.

Any yall CFI in western indiana/eastern IL or nw arkansas want to give me some instruction, I'll pay?

Edited March 28 by SilentT

[KLRDMD]

Why? It is almost always more expensive to pay for "X" number of hours than it is to just suck it up and pay the higher first-year premium. If you want 10 hours of complex at $250-300 an hour with a CFI, will you save the $2,500-$3,000 on that first-year premium? I sincerely doubt it.

Edited March 28 by KLRDMD

[RescueMunchkin]

12 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

Why? It is almost always more expensive to pay for "X" number of hours than it is to just suck it up and pay the higher first-year premium. If you want 10 hours of complex at $250-300 an hour with a CFI, will you save the $2,500-$3,000 on that first-year premium? I sincerely doubt it.

At this point it's not clear if the OP is complex endorsed, and if OP isn't, then it wouldn't be legal to fly so that's what OP may be seeking

I'm started my policy at ~$3700/year on an M20F with only about 8.5 complex hours (5.5 as PIC)

[redbaron1982]

I think the insurance doesn't go down until at least 50 hours in make and model, so yes, just get the airplane you want and build the time with it. 

In your place, my main concerns would be: getting the right airplane (and I don't mean the right make and model only, but also one that is in good shape) and get enough trying to fill confident of flying solo. 

[SilentT]

Oddly enough it is.

Traditional broker took it out best case $6,000 for a 6 month worst case uninsurable with zero complex time.

Avimco will do 3900 the first year but need 10 hours

[redbaron1982]

With 0 complex time you don't have the endorsement that is required. 

I started flying my J model with 0 complex time. The insurance asked for 10 hours transition training which included the complex endorsement. In addition, 10 extra hours (which could be solo flying) to get the minimum of 20 to fly with passengers.

Have in mind that many insurance companies ask for time in make and model, so it your complex time is on a 182RG most likely is not going to help you much with a Mooney insurance. 

Edited March 28 by redbaron1982

[wombat]

Buy the plane you want, tell the insurance company that you will have 10 hours time in type prior to their coverage starting.

 

Then either A: fly uninsured for the first 10 hours or B: hire a CFI for 10 hours of dual for when you get the plane.    Someone contacted me last week looking for transition training.    10 hours of CFI time is likely to be less than $1,000, and you might as well get it in your plane.  Make sure your CFI is covered in your plane for those first 10 hours.  Either as a named insured or that they have non-owned coverage and that they meet your policy's open pilot warranty.

 

Edited March 29 by wombat
Made it clear that the intent is not to lie to the insurance company.

[N201MKTurbo]

A friend of mine who changes airplanes about as much as @KLRDMD just flys naked until he has enough hours for the insurance company. I'm not endorsing this plan, but that is what he does.

[ArtVandelay]

I got my complex in an Arrow, only because I wanted to fly a low wing and see if I wanted to buy an Arrow. It made no difference in training or insurance.

[ZuluZulu]

30 minutes ago, wombat said:

Buy the plane you want, tell the insurance company that you have 10 hours time in type.     

 

Then either A: fly uninsured for the first 10 hours or B: hire a CFI for 10 hours of dual for when you get the plane.    Someone contacted me last week looking for transition training.    10 hours of CFI time is likely to be less than $1,000, and you might as well get it in your plane.  Make sure your CFI is covered in your plane for those first 10 hours.  Either as a named insured or that they have non-owned coverage and that they meet your policy's open pilot warranty.

Proving the value of free advice, "lie to the insurance company on purpose" is certainly ... an idea.

[toto]

2 hours ago, SilentT said:

That's the title says I'm struggling to get complex hours before becoming an owner, none of the flight schools around me carry complex aircraft anymore. This is mostly due to the removal of the requirement for complex to single engine commercial and other routes being more appealing.

Any yall CFI in western indiana/eastern IL or nw arkansas want to give me some instruction, I'll pay?

You might just figure out where the nearest rental Arrow lives, buy some block time and spend a weekend getting dual. Even if it’s not a Mooney, having 10 hours in retracts will help your insurability, and having the complex endorsement will simplify things. 

ETA: I’m not familiar with western IN or eastern IL, but it looks like there is an Arrow for rent at KSGF, which is fairly close to NW AR. 

[EricJ]

14 minutes ago, toto said:

You might just figure out where the nearest rental Arrow lives, buy some block time and spend a weekend getting dual. Even if it’s not a Mooney, having 10 hours in retracts will help your insurability, and having the complex endorsement will simplify things. 

I did that, not by plan, just by fate.   I had about 25 hours in an Arrow when I bought my Mooney.   My insurance guy is a friend I'd known for a while, anyway, and when I asked him how much transition time I'd need he kinda shrugged and said, "I dunno, how's two hours?"    I think those days may be gone, though. 

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, redbaron1982 said:

With 0 complex time you don't have the endorsement that is required. 

I started flying my J model with 0 complex time. The insurance asked for 10 hours transition training which included the complex endorsement. In addition, 10 extra hours (which could be solo flying) to get the minimum of 20 to fly with passengers.

Have in mind that many insurance companies ask for time in make and model, so it your complex time is on a 182RG most likely is not going to help you much with a Mooney insurance. 

This was me too, I had 0 complex and only 58.6 hours total in my logbook. The transition time took care of the complex endorsement, and by the time I was done with that and the extra solo time I felt ready to take passengers.

[toto]

16 minutes ago, EricJ said:

I did that, not by plan, just by fate.   I had about 25 hours in an Arrow when I bought my Mooney.   My insurance guy is a friend I'd known for a while, anyway, and when I asked him how much transition time I'd need he kinda shrugged and said, "I dunno, how's two hours?"    I think those days may be gone, though. 

I had a five-hour mandatory transition period on my policy, but I came in with about 40 RG hours. I knocked out the five hours in two long flights over a couple days with a qualified instructor.. nbd. 

[McMooney]

find a good cfi to do your transition training, you'll get the 10 hours.  

complex endorsement is like 1 flight, no biggie

[Utah20Gflyer]

4 hours ago, SilentT said:

Oddly enough it is.

Traditional broker took it out best case $6,000 for a 6 month worst case uninsurable with zero complex time.

Avimco will do 3900 the first year but need 10 hours

I started with Avemco and had 15 hours in an Arrow when I bought my Mooney.  They required 10 hours of dual in the aircraft I purchased before I could solo it.  I’m sure that is what Avemco is offering you.  I think you are misunderstanding that you have to have 10 hours complex before you can do your 10 hours of dual for transition training in the Mooney.  It’s likely JUST the 10 hours of transition training. 
 

Call Avemco and verify of course.  

[RescueMunchkin]

1 hour ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

I started with Avemco and had 15 hours in an Arrow when I bought my Mooney.  They required 10 hours of dual in the aircraft I purchased before I could solo it.  I’m sure that is what Avemco is offering you.  I think you are misunderstanding that you have to have 10 hours complex before you can do your 10 hours of dual for transition training in the Mooney.  It’s likely JUST the 10 hours of transition training. 
 

Call Avemco and verify of course.  

This is what I went through. There is a clause about 10 hours in make and model before I could be covered solo. That was the hardest part for me too - they didn't count my previous Mooney time since it wasn't in an F.

[MikeOH]

13 minutes ago, RescueMunchkin said:

This is what I went through. There is a clause about 10 hours in make and model before I could be covered solo. That was the hardest part for me too - they didn't count my previous Mooney time since it wasn't in an F.

Wow!  Times have changed...a little over 6 years ago when I bought my F the insurance didn't require any transition training or hours, dual or solo, as I had over 100 hours in a B model.

[RescueMunchkin]

5 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Wow!  Times have changed...a little over 6 years ago when I bought my F the insurance didn't require any transition training or hours, dual or solo, as I had over 100 hours in a B model.

Could be because you had so much time in a Complex? Also maybe different insurers have different requirements. I went with Avemco because it was a lot less with my relatively low experience.

Another plus with Avemco is they apply discounts immediately and prorate the premiums. I got my IR a week after I bought the plane and that was my first phone call after passing - they knocked off 10% right away.

Edited March 29 by RescueMunchkin

[toto]

4 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Wow!  Times have changed...a little over 6 years ago when I bought my F the insurance didn't require any transition training or hours, dual or solo, as I had over 100 hours in a B model.

If I remember correctly, Parker had a post a while back where he said that different insurance companies do this differently. I think he said that some would accept any Mooney experience as time in type, while others had more specific model requirements. 

[MikeOH]

5 minutes ago, toto said:

If I remember correctly, Parker had a post a while back where he said that different insurance companies do this differently. I think he said that some would accept any Mooney experience as time in type, while others had more specific model requirements. 

Possible.  Wonder if there has been a 'sea change'?

@Parker_Woodruff

Has there been an overall change where underwriters demand hours in the exact model?  Or, is it unchanged policy?

[carusoam]

I like the Transition Training route…

Expect about 10hrs with a Mooney specific flight instructor…  (a lot depends on your insurer)

Learn how to handle all the wackiness that is specific to Mooney airframes… with somebody that KNOWs.

 

First year of insurance usually costs about 1k more than the second year… stay proficient after that…

 

All airplanes are just different enough from each other…. Getting the transition training for the new 2U bird is worth it…

 

The most recent Mooney accident, may make you wonder about the new owner’s level of transition training… 

 

New 2U machines can be dangerous solely because of all the new things going on…. Not recognizing things as they happen….

 

Transition training is used in the industrial machine industry as well… it’s not just a pilot thing…   

 

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic… or a CFI.

Best regards,

-a-

[Shadrach]

Unless things have changed drastically, you should be able to get the endorsement in your own plane. Insurance company will require some amount of dual and then prohibit passenger carrying until minimum requirements are met. Don’t make this harder than it is. Call your insurance company and ask them the best way of moving up. I had 200hrs TT and no complex when I started flying the Mooney. I did a few hrs of dual and 10hrs solo before insured to carry passengers.

[Hank]

I bought my Mooney with 62 hours in my logbook, five weeks after my PPL checkride.

Insurance changes frequently. My broker said that several no-quoted me; a couple wanted 10 hours dual and 10 hours solstice before passengers. But he also offered to use their preferred instructor for 15 hours dual including 5 hours actual/simulated IMC. I took the latter option, getting the Complex Endorsement along the way.

Flying straight into a cloud seemed wrong, and I commented on it; the CFII beside me said, "it is, but do it right now anyway." If nothing else, it taught me to stay away from VFR-into-IMC "opportunities."

I flew 100 hours the first year, all over the Appalachians (based in WV), and my sky-high insurance premium was reduced by half for the next two years until I finished Instrument training when it fell by another third.

Then I discovered Falcon Insurance and it went down again. Now I'm with Airspeed (thanks, @Parker_Woodruff!), and it fluctuates rather like the price of gas--up and down periodically but trending slightly upward.

Good luck with your quest! And remember, Fly as if your life depended on it, because it does!

[wombat]

14 hours ago, ZuluZulu said:

Proving the value of free advice, "lie to the insurance company on purpose" is certainly ... an idea.

I've rephrased it in my original post.  To make it clear, the insurance coverage doesn't start until you have the 10 hours you said you will have before coverage begins.

There is absolutely no lying involved and that is not what I was attempting to suggest.