What happened to the post about N1167J?

[Shadrach]

14 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

Both. 

The unhelpful probable cause in the NTSB report is: "The pilot's inadequate fuel planning and improper in-flight decision making, which resulted in a total loss of engine power due to fuel exhaustion."

It had been sitting on the ramp at my home airport for about 10 years. Rotted tires, birds nests, who knows what in the interior, the works. The buyer and mechanic inspected, bought it, and did enough work on it to get a ferry permit. Turns out the link I provided is a disappearing one but if you go to the NTSB aviation accident search page and enter the tail number you will get there. The docket contains the ferry permit and the pilot's report to the NTSB. 

The pilot's report is interesting. This was a multi leg trip and the pilot reported that he measured actual fuel use at two fuel stops before Colorado and, based on that, fuel flow was within expected parameters. He "should" have still had about 1.5 hours fuel on board when he ran out on final to KLAA. 

The stops also "should" have been enough to preclude the existence of a leak, although in a trashed ramp queen, I'm not sure I would preclude the possibility of a leak (or some other problem) developing on that third leg. I wondered whether the original fuel gauges were operating at all.

My post saying all this may have been the last post before the old thread was deleted.  Not suer why. I said nothing negative about the pilot.

Simply forgetting to lean the engine on the last leg could have caused such an incident. Sucks to see on off airport landing so close to an airport. We had Cessna Conquest come up just a few miles short of his intended stop. Pilot died when he was just minutes from what would have been touchdown…

[Echo]

47 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

My post needed proofread. It was meant to read that I did not get the impression that you’d been judged. It’s been edited accordingly.

getting involved in a sale is a totally different situation.

Sorry, you were referring to my comment on last sale.
 

 Agree that if buying a plane you are also buying seller so the FAA data base is your best friend under those circumstances to learn about plane and pilot/owner

Edited February 25 by Echo

[midlifeflyer]

18 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Simply forgetting to lean the engine on the last leg could have caused such an incident. Sucks to see on off airport landing so close to an airport. We had Cessna Conquest come up just a few miles short of his intended stop. Pilot died when he was just minutes from what would have been touchdown…

There are certainly multiple possibilities, some fuel management, some structural.

Thinking about it, an Utah-based pilot forgetting to lean would be very unusual.

Edited February 26 by midlifeflyer

[Texas Mooney]

22 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

Both. 

The unhelpful probable cause in the NTSB report is: "The pilot's inadequate fuel planning and improper in-flight decision making, which resulted in a total loss of engine power due to fuel exhaustion."

It had been sitting on the ramp at my home airport for about 10 years. Rotted tires, birds nests, who knows what in the interior, the works. The buyer and mechanic inspected, bought it, and did enough work on it to get a ferry permit. Turns out the link I provided is a disappearing one but if you go to the NTSB aviation accident search page and enter the tail number you will get there. The docket contains the ferry permit and the pilot's report to the NTSB. 

The pilot's report is interesting. This was a multi leg trip and the pilot reported that he measured actual fuel use at two fuel stops before Colorado and, based on that, fuel flow was within expected parameters. He "should" have still had about 1.5 hours fuel on board when he ran out on final to KLAA. 

The stops also "should" have been enough to preclude the existence of a leak, although in a trashed ramp queen, I'm not sure I would preclude the possibility of a leak (or some other problem) developing on that third leg. I wondered whether the original fuel gauges were operating at all.

I found the docket with the pilot report and ferry permit using your link and the tail number.  In the pilot report under Fuel & Services Information it says that the engine did not run well on the morning of 10/30/2023 and that he replaced the engine driven fuel pump which ran well after that.  That is the same day of the 4-5 hour accident flight to Colorado.  There is no mention of a test flight after changing the fuel pump.  Continental engines require the SID-97 fuel system test and adjustment after fuel pump replacement otherwise anything could be off.  The performance and fuel parameters he saw on the prior days and legs could be meaningless.  And ther ferry permit says he could only fly in daylight.  Does anyone know how long it takes to change the engine driven fuel pump on a Continental in a K?  That is one crazy long day racing against sunset.  A leak from working on it or just the new pump could have caused this besides not leaning.

[Shadrach]

On 2/25/2024 at 11:43 AM, Echo said:

What benefit is gained?  Making them uncomfortable is the goal to create behavioral change?  Please explain.  Again, I am all about telling the story of what happened and what contributed to learn and hopefully not do the same.

The benefit to be gained is the full picture of what took place. One cannot simply divorce the pilot from the outcome. Pilots are way more than just a few links in the accident chain that lead up to an incident.  I don't need to know everything about every incident, but when it bears looking into, it bears looking into.  Again, it is not out of malice.  I also appreciate seeing how these airframes fair in all manner of crash scenarios. I deeply appreciate the many times I have seen a Mooney with bent and crumpled extremities surrounding a well intact steel cabin structure. Perhaps gear ups are different and there is nothing to learn from seeing them or probing a little deeper into the back story.  I personally think that all public incidents are fair to examine, but not all are interesting enough to warrant it. 

As to your story with an instructor on board, there but by the grace of god go I... I have done some boneheaded things with instructors on board and I've seen high time pilots do dumb things when they are being critiqued.  I was once riding shotgun with a 6000hr ATP in a Baron who was getting back into GA airplanes (I am not a CFI, just flying with a friend).  There was ILS traffic that prompted tower to ask us to extend downwind, between that, talking to tower, talking to me and looking for traffic, he failed to drop the gear as he normally would. I waited until we were on about 2 mile final and then casually said "this looks like as good a place as any to drop the gear".  He went white and mumbled some sort of excuse. He later owned it and thanked me catching it. I explained that he probably would have caught it before TD. I knew how he felt and described how I had once made it to short final with the gear still up.  I think that the pilots who gear up feel personal shame after the incident.  I think the pilots reading about it feel both empathy and sympathy. If they don't, it's likely they don't have enough flight time to have witnessed their own shortcomings.

[Jim Peace]

gas is the most inexpensive $$ spent on an airplane.  Even at Signature 9 dollar a gallon prices, especially for our Mooneys....yet pilots still plan to land with minimal fuel to save a few dollars...

okay standing by for incoming....

[wombat]

I think fuel is about 33% of my cost.

1/3 is maintenance

1/3 is fuel

1/3 is the cost of capital.  

If I include the cost of the hangar, it changes a little, less than 5% difference though.

 

But this would vary quite a bit based on what airplane people have and how much they fly it

[Jim Peace]

6 hours ago, wombat said:

If I include the cost of the hangar, it changes a little, less than 5% difference though.

Hangars in some parts of the country would change it a lot....also don't forget about insurance and all the money spent on restaurants to have an excuse to fly when normally you could just eat a PB&J at home....

I also have hotel expenses that are outrageous here in FL for quick overnight trips that I would not have normally taken without an airplane....

Damn addiction if you ask me....

Why are we all of a sudden doing the math on this.....

[Mooney in Oz]

On 3/16/2024 at 12:31 PM, Jim Peace said:

Damn addiction if you ask me....

This ^^^^^