Foreflight Alternatives? Which EFB should I switch to?

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, 0TreeLemur said:

Let me know if this still works for you.  FF tech support told me yesterday that FF has always required receiving ADS-B data in FF mode, and has never supported the GDL90 Capstone ADS-B format.  I call B.S. because my setup with IFD540 and FF connected as clients to the Stratus worked from Sept-Nov. of last year, but doesn't now.

If everyone with your setup (IFD/Stratus 3/iPad) was having the same problem the forums would be blowing up. It’s just a matter of getting the settings, software and firmware right on all three devices. It could be something as simple as an iOS update that threw it off. This too shall pass.

Just because the way yours was set up worked for a few months doesn’t means that they “supported” it. Here’s the GDL90 format they support: https://www.foreflight.com/connect/spec/

 

[PT20J]

ForeFlight will connect to the IFD for ADS-B In. Can you not just use that interface rather than the Stratus 3? That interface also advertises flight plan transfer.

ForeFlight has a particular interface that they test for the Stratus 3 and that's what they guarantee. It sounds like either there is a setup problem or perhaps FF has altered the operation of an unadvertised feature. In my experience running software development, lots of commercial software has unadvertised features; sometimes they are there for testing, sometimes they are future unrelease features still in development, and often they are just design errors. The support team will likely not know about them. Certified products will very seldom have "hidden" features because they generally comply with RTCA DO-178 which puts severe restrictions on such things. 

From the link @LANCECASPER posted, it kind of seems like not much is guaranteed if you try to use a GDL 90 device.

[0TreeLemur]

All I know is:

My setup with IFD540 and FF connected as clients to the Stratus 3 using the GDL90 "Capstone" open ADS-B standard worked from Sept-Nov. of last year, but doesn't now.   Nothing changed in my configuration.

Except immediately upon startup, FF no longer shows traffic when connected to a Stratus 3 configured to use the open ADS-B standard.   It worked continuously for long flights last fall.  Conclusion: they "broke" FF.

Some bugs are bugs.  Some are features.

Edited January 24 by 0TreeLemur

[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, 0TreeLemur said:

All I know is:

My setup with IFD540 and FF connected as clients to the Stratus 3 using the GDL90 "Capstone" open ADS-B standard worked from Sept-Nov. of last year, but doesn't now.   Nothing changed in my configuration.

Except immediately upon startup, FF no longer shows traffic when connected to a Stratus 3 configured to use the open ADS-B standard.   It worked continuously for long flights last fall.  Conclusion: they "broke" FF.

Some bugs are bugs.  Some are features.

I believe that set-up has changed. The video link I mentioned yesterday on the Avidynelive.com shows the Avidyne as the server and the FF and Stratus clients. 

[EricJ]

13 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

I believe that set-up has changed. The video link I mentioned yesterday on the Avidynelive.com shows the Avidyne as the server and the FF and Stratus clients. 

The IFD can be configured as either the Access Point (server) or a client.   

[LANCECASPER]

30 minutes ago, EricJ said:

The IFD can be configured as either the Access Point (server) or a client.   

Yes when I had my last Avidyne, an IFD550, before selling the Bravo, I had the Stratus set up as the Server and the IFD as the client.

I was an early Avidyne adopter, so many times at Sun N Fun and Oshkosh, Avidyne had me working the booth teaching people how to set up their data blocks and how to set up their Stratus as the host, etc.

Since I bought the Acclaim at the end of 2021 I haven’t kept track of the updates in 2022 and 2023, but my understanding is that if you are using the new capability of using ADS-B-in from the Stratus, now the IFD needs to be the server and the iPad and Stratus need to be the clients. However, Avidyne Customer support was always excellent and a quick phone call would solve it I am sure. 

[EricJ]

11 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

Yes when I had my last Avidyne, an IFD550, before selling the Bravo, I had the Stratus set up as the Server and the IFD as the client.

I was an early Avidyne adopter, so many times at Sun N Fun and Oshkosh, Avidyne had me working the booth teaching people how to set up their data blocks and how to set up their Stratus as the host, etc.

Since I bought the Acclaim at the end of 2021 I haven’t kept track of the updates in 2022 and 2023, but my understanding is that if you are using the new capability of using ADS-B-in from the Stratus, now the IFD needs to be the server and the iPad and Stratus need to be the clients. However, Avidyne Customer support was always excellent and a quick phone call would solve it I am sure. 

There are apparently some specific dependencies there.    I have an in-panel Freeflight Ranger for ADS-B-in in the panel, and I also use a Stratux that feeds my EFB.   After the release where traffic could come from an external source, I discovered that it can't get data from both the Ranger and the stratux, it has to be one or the other.   Since my stratux is dual-band and the Ranger is 978-only I was hoping to increase in-panel display coverage, but it is apparently not possible to mix the sources.    That might be part of the restrictions on whether it can be an AP or client.

[toomany]

i use foreflight for filing and wingx pro for flying. i like wingx because you can download the entire US approach charts database and dont have to "pack" for every flight. wingx used to be a lot better - they just got rid of winds aloft and before that they nixed the fbo information. i use it primarily for simplicity and ease of ise due to familiarity


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Nokomis449]

6 hours ago, EricJ said:

Since my stratux is dual-band and the Ranger is 978-only I was hoping to increase in-panel display coverage,

Side note on ADS-B - 

IF you are ADS-B OUT, part of your data stream sent to the towers is set to indicate how you want to receive your IN data.  So regardless of whether your OUT is 1090 or 978, you can tell the tower to "talk" to your IN on 978.  The tower will then send all known traffic within your puck, including 1090 traffic, on 978.  Of course this is only the known traffic, and only the traffic within your puck, and only when your OUT is hitting a tower, so it's not exactly the same as having 1090 IN directly via Stratux.  For instance, aircraft that aren't hitting a tower and/or aircraft that is not being painted by radar will not be sent to you via ADS-B, whereas the Stratux might can see and report these targets directly.  But for typical flying at altitude within range of a tower, the RANGR will report nearby 1090 OUT traffic.

I personally want to see more traffic than just what is in my puck, so I use a dual band Stratux as my ADS-B IN like you want.  I mention this because not everybody understands that the tower is able to combine all traffic into whichever frequency your OUT has told it.  Also note that I'm remembering this from pre-ADS-B mandate research so it's subject to memory corruption. 

EDIT:  I have confirmed that I am correct (no one is more shocked than me.)  Your ADS-B OUT is configurable to tell the ground station that you are capable of listening on one, the other, both, or neither frequencies and the ground station will combine known traffic on the selected frequency.  "Neither" tells the tower not to transmit anything to you.

Edited January 25 by Nokomis449
Clarity

[takair]

31 minutes ago, toomany said:

i use foreflight for filing and wingx pro for flying. i like wingx because you can download the entire US approach charts database and dont have to "pack" for every flight. wingx used to be a lot better - they just got rid of winds aloft and before that they nixed the fbo information. i use it primarily for simplicity and ease of ise due to familiarity


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not trying to hijack the topic….but you don’t have to pack charts for every flight with Foreflight…..the charts can be downloaded if you select them in advance.  Mine are automatically updated as they become available.  I don’t do the entire US to save space, but I do have the entire eastern US.  Maybe I’m misunderstanding your comment, but if not, simply go into downloads and select what you want….

[toto]

1 hour ago, toomany said:

i use foreflight for filing and wingx pro for flying. i like wingx because you can download the entire US approach charts database and dont have to "pack" for every flight. wingx used to be a lot better - they just got rid of winds aloft and before that they nixed the fbo information. i use it primarily for simplicity and ease of ise due to familiarity


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I could never get my head around WingX.  I used to keep a free CFI subscription, but every time I tried to use the app, I seemed to have the hardest time figuring out how to do the simplest things.  I think the user interface is an acquired taste

 

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, Nokomis449 said:

Side note on ADS-B - 

IF you are ADS-B OUT, part of your data stream sent to the towers is set to indicate how you want to receive your IN data.  So regardless of whether your OUT is 1090 or 978, you can tell the tower to "talk" to your IN on 978.  The tower will then send all known traffic within your puck, including 1090 traffic, on 978.  Of course this is only the known traffic, and only the traffic within your puck, and only when your OUT is hitting a tower, so it's not exactly the same as having 1090 IN directly via Stratux.  For instance, aircraft that aren't hitting a tower and/or aircraft that is not being painted by radar will not be sent to you via ADS-B, whereas the Stratux might can see and report these targets directly.  But for typical flying at altitude within range of a tower, the RANGR will report nearby 1090 OUT traffic.

I personally want to see more traffic than just what is in my puck, so I use a dual band Stratux as my ADS-B IN like you want.  I mention this because not everybody understands that the tower is able to combine all traffic into whichever frequency your OUT has told it.  Also note that I'm remembering this from pre-ADS-B mandate research so it's subject to memory corruption. 

EDIT:  I have confirmed that I am correct (no one is more shocked than me.)  Your ADS-B OUT is configurable to tell the ground station that you are capable of listening on one, the other, both, or neither frequencies and the ground station will combine known traffic on the selected frequency.  "Neither" tells the tower not to transmit anything to you.

Yes, but as you mention, regardless of what the towers are feeding you, can miss targets on 1090 if you only have 978 in, which is the case for my in-panel ADS-B-in.   There are often discrepancies between my EFB and in-panel displays, targets that show up on one and not the other, and I was trying to merge the two.   This would especially help to put the direct targets on the in-panel display on the IFD.   Alas, however, it is not to be, so I have to settle for just keeping an eye on both, which is still fine, just not quite as easy.   Maybe someday if I'm motivated I'll spring for the dual-band Ranger or equivalent (which wasn't available when my panel was built).

[PT20J]

14 hours ago, Nokomis449 said:

Side note on ADS-B - 

IF you are ADS-B OUT, part of your data stream sent to the towers is set to indicate how you want to receive your IN data.  So regardless of whether your OUT is 1090 or 978, you can tell the tower to "talk" to your IN on 978.  The tower will then send all known traffic within your puck, including 1090 traffic, on 978.  Of course this is only the known traffic, and only the traffic within your puck, and only when your OUT is hitting a tower, so it's not exactly the same as having 1090 IN directly via Stratux.  For instance, aircraft that aren't hitting a tower and/or aircraft that is not being painted by radar will not be sent to you via ADS-B, whereas the Stratux might can see and report these targets directly.  But for typical flying at altitude within range of a tower, the RANGR will report nearby 1090 OUT traffic.

I personally want to see more traffic than just what is in my puck, so I use a dual band Stratux as my ADS-B IN like you want.  I mention this because not everybody understands that the tower is able to combine all traffic into whichever frequency your OUT has told it.  Also note that I'm remembering this from pre-ADS-B mandate research so it's subject to memory corruption. 

ADS-B traffic is really several related broadcast services.

ADS-B Out sends your identity and position and velocity to the ground system on either (or possibly both) the 1090ES or UAT frequencies.

ADS-B (air-to-air) receives ADS-B transmissions from other aircraft on the same frequency for display on your system.

ADS-R detects aircraft in close proximity that are transmitting on different frequencies and retransmits position on both frequencies so that both aircraft “see” each other.

TIS-B detects non ADS-B targets from secondary radar and transmits their position to ADS-B equipped aircraft.

The advantage of a dual band receiver is that it receives air-to-air transmissions on both frequencies so you don’t miss any traffic when not receiving ADS-R from a ground station and it may show more distant traffic than transmitted by ADS-R when receiving that service.

Here is a document that describes all the ADS-B services.

MA SBS Description Document SRT-047_V5_DCR-PMO-211_11202020signed18DEC20.pdf

 

 

Edited January 25 by PT20J
Clarified some details

[0TreeLemur]

Today I learned that the Stratus 3's so-called "open ADS-B" mode is really a Garmin Pilot format.   That's why FF doesn't do it.  That said, apparently the Stratus 3 always provides GDL90 output on a certain port using UDP packets.  FF probably doesn't trust the GDL90 standard because some transmitters give ownship elevation in height above WGS84 geoid rather than mean sea level as required by aviation standards.   FF extended that protocol to add a discriminator to detect this, but that extension is not universal. 

So-

Anybody here use Appareo Insight EFB?   Apparently, it can access the "always there" Open ADS-B format data from the stratus, which means you can simultaneously configure the Stratus 3 to transmit either one of either Garmin Pilot or FF formatted data as well.  That solves my Avidyne connectivity problem. 

The www site for Appareo Insight honestly feels stale.  Lots of two+ year old news items.  A search of Youtube turns up mostly 3 year old videos.   While it looks similar to FF, it lacks some functionality, while offering a few different features that FF doesn't have.

 

Edited January 25 by 0TreeLemur
detail

[PeteMc]

4 hours ago, toomany said:

i use foreflight for filing and wingx pro for flying.

So I take it you don't have a Garmin panel or you just don't care to pull ADS-B info or send Flight Plans To/From your EFB (WingX)? 

 

Edited January 25 by PeteMc

[PT20J]

11 hours ago, 0TreeLemur said:

Today I learned that the Stratus 3's so-called "open ADS-B" mode is really a Garmin Pilot format.   That's why FF doesn't do it.  That said, apparently the Stratus 3 always provides GDL90 output on a certain port using UDP packets.  FF probably doesn't trust the GDL90 standard because some transmitters give ownship elevation in height above WGS84 geoid rather than mean sea level as required by aviation standards.   FF extended that protocol to add a discriminator to detect this, but that extension is not universal. 

So-

Anybody here use Appareo Insight EFB?   Apparently, it can access the "always there" Open ADS-B format data from the stratus, which means you can simultaneously configure the Stratus 3 to transmit either one of either Garmin Pilot or FF formatted data as well.  That solves my Avidyne connectivity problem. 

The www site for Appareo Insight honestly feels stale.  Lots of two+ year old news items.  A search of Youtube turns up mostly 3 year old videos.   While it looks similar to FF, it lacks some functionality, while offering a few different features that FF doesn't have.

 

 

[Hank]

45 minutes ago, PT20J said:

 

Dear God! The instruction book for ForeFlight is at least 777 pages long??? That's six of my Mooney's Owner's Manual!!!

Who has ever read the whole thing? No one, I bet . . . . .

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

Dear God! The instruction book for ForeFlight is at least 777 pages long??? That's six of my Mooney's Owner's Manual!!!

Who has ever read the whole thing? No one, I bet . . . . .

I haven't. I treat most manuals as a source of information I (a) don't know and (b) want to know, so it's rare for me to read the whole manual for anything. In the case of Foreflight, I don't use all it features and having subscribed for 13 years, I've learned most of the features I use as they were added.  When I look up something now, it's usually because someone asked me a question I don't know the answer to.

[Rick Junkin]

5 hours ago, Hank said:

Who has ever read the whole thing? No one, I bet . . . . .

I've at least LOOKED at every page that's applicable to single engine piston aircraft, but I'm a little weird that way.  The thing I really like about the FF manual is that it has the detail to answer just about every question I've ever had about using FF. I search on the term I'm needing help with and it diminishes the impact of the sheer volume of pages. And don't forget the separate Legends Guide, Weight & Balance Guide, Filing Guide and Logbook Guide. They are not short on documentation, and they keep it updated. And it's in large print. 

I tried to make the switch to Garmin Pilot but I've been using Foreflight since the first version and am entrenched enough that it's worth the subscription cost to maintain my logbook, imported document library, and familiarity of operation in and with the Foreflight app. I may reconsider in the future if the costs exceed the value to me but for now it just works and customer support has been very good. The only thing I'd like improved is to be able to use iCloud for document access. I carry a Dropbox subscription for the sole purpose of Foreflight external document access, and I'd like to get rid of that.

To the OP, I feel your pain of finding a way to make something work that wasn't necessarily designed into the product and then having that capability go away as all the pieces-parts develop and change. I hadn't planned to go all Big G with my panel upgrade, but they do integration well and there's a lot to be said for going with a complete package of gear that's all designed to work together. I'm relatively assured they will continue to work together as they mature in software and upgrades, unlike the interoperability of equipment from various manufacturers. Foreflight and the other EFBs have a monumental task trying to keep their designed interfaces functional with all the changing boxes and software in our panels, let alone the undocumented things that may work today but not with tomorrow's new third party release.

Cheers,
Rick

[0TreeLemur]

6 hours ago, PT20J said:

 

What does this mean?   Let me translate the above plus what is written at foreflight.com/connect/spec:

Oster blenders can by used for other purposes, not explicitly supported by Oster.  Non-approved items put in this blender may get blended. 

Oster does not support blending of non-approved items in this blender, and may take this feature away at any time for any reason.

Ok.  It seems that this is what they've done. 

 

[Rick Junkin]

@0TreeLemur, did you see this post from Lance? I am basically illiterate when it comes to connectivity questions, but it looks like something other than Foreflight has changed in your lash-up of equipment that may require a reconfiguration and solve your issue.

On 1/24/2024 at 4:24 PM, LANCECASPER said:

but my understanding is that if you are using the new capability of using ADS-B-in from the Stratus, now the IFD needs to be the server and the iPad and Stratus need to be the clients. However, Avidyne Customer support was always excellent and a quick phone call would solve it I am sure. 

Apologies if this isn't helpful.

Cheers,
Rick

[PeteMc]

6 hours ago, Hank said:

Who has ever read the whole thing?

I've probably read most of it.  Not at one time by any means, but a lot years ago when I first started using FF and since then a lot of Searches for specific details. 

 

[0TreeLemur]

4 hours ago, Rick Junkin said:

@0TreeLemur, did you see this post from Lance? I am basically illiterate when it comes to connectivity questions, but it looks like something other than Foreflight has changed in your lash-up of equipment that may require a reconfiguration and solve your issue.

Apologies if this isn't helpful.

Cheers,
Rick

Thanks Rick.  I did read that.   The Stratus 3 cannot be a client because its designed solely to be a server.   That prevents the flow of traffic data to the IFD unless the IFD connects as a client to the Stratus server.

I could solve this problem quickly by buying/installing a certified Avidyne ADS-B receiver.    That's waaay down on my priority list right now.  Plus they are really expensive compared to a Stratus.

The steam is going out of my sails regarding moving from FF to something else.   My subscription runs until Oct.   Maybe FF will fix the bug that is affecting me.   Several other people on the Avidyne facebook group report having the same problem.   But it seems that the Stratus+Avidyne+FF crowd who display traffic on their Avidyne is not huge.

-Fred

Edited January 26 by 0TreeLemur

[PT20J]

So, I still don’t understand why you cannot just connect FF to the IFD instead of the Stratus.

[PeteMc]

3 minutes ago, PT20J said:

So, I still don’t understand why you cannot just connect FF to the IFD instead of the Stratus.

Because the IFD's are not ADS-B devices.  They can pass the info along like the GTNs, but they don't directly receive the ADS-B info.  So he's using the little remote device to act as the primary ADS-B IN and then the IDF will pass on that info.