DCarlton Posted November 14, 2023 Report Share Posted November 14, 2023 22 hours ago, jetdriven said: it cost over 7K to add the second two bladders to make it 64. Just do it upfront. You may not want to fly out all 64 gallons but its ncie to tanker fuel roundtrip and skip the 8$ avgas at the place you're going, for example. That's the upside; being able to buy cheap fuel when you can. The upside with 50ish gallons is not having to fill and carry so much fuel if you want to keep the tanks topped off (which I usually don't do; I typically fuel right before flying not after). I have one more shot at getting my tanks resealed in April 2024; if I don't make it for some reason, bladders will be seriously on the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huckster79 Posted November 17, 2023 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2023 Just wanted to update you all... Well step 1 done: It is NOT the fuel sender as hoped... It appears the stain begins on the front outboard portion of the tank. It appears its low, as I found no stains on any vertical surface I could weasel the camera into, but that also isn't exhaustive proof either... I was able to chase the stain trail quite a ways with the help of my borescope in a couple of the inspection panels... So my IA and I decided he's going to pull it in the next opening he has, and we will drain it, pop an inspection cover or two and see what we can visually, to decide the next step... Thanks again for all the input and help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted November 17, 2023 Report Share Posted November 17, 2023 11 minutes ago, Huckster79 said: Just wanted to update you all... Well step 1 done: It is NOT the fuel sender as hoped... It appears the stain begins on the front outboard portion of the tank. It appears its low, as I found no stains on any vertical surface I could weasel the camera into, but that also isn't exhaustive proof either... I was able to chase the stain trail quite a ways with the help of my borescope in a couple of the inspection panels... So my IA and I decided he's going to pull it in the next opening he has, and we will drain it, pop an inspection cover or two and see what we can visually, to decide the next step... Thanks again for all the input and help! Try the bubble test pulling a small vacuum on the tank through the vent. That's usually good at showing where the leak is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huckster79 Posted November 18, 2023 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 4 hours ago, EricJ said: Try the bubble test pulling a small vacuum on the tank through the vent. That's usually good at showing where the leak is. That’s the plan… really was hoping it was just the fuel sender 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCarlton Posted November 18, 2023 Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 6 hours ago, EricJ said: Try the bubble test pulling a small vacuum on the tank through the vent. That's usually good at showing where the leak is. How do you pull a vacuum and see the leaks without plexiglass cover plates ? I’m missing something fundamental. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted November 18, 2023 Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 Just now, DCarlton said: How do you pull a vacuum and see the leaks without plexiglass cover plates ? I’m missing something fundamental. That's how it's done. He said they were going to pop some inspection covers, so that'll make it possible to do that test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCarlton Posted November 18, 2023 Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 1 minute ago, EricJ said: That's how it's done. He said they were going to pop some inspection covers, so that'll make it possible to do that test. Seems like a lot of work to make those plexiglass plates unless you have them already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted November 18, 2023 Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 11 minutes ago, DCarlton said: Seems like a lot of work to make those plexiglass plates unless you have them already. You just need a piece bigger than the inspection hole and tape it down to the wing, sealing the edges with the tape. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted November 18, 2023 Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 18 minutes ago, DCarlton said: Seems like a lot of work to make those plexiglass plates unless you have them already. Here's old archived page from Maxwell's site. The pics didn't get saved, unfortunately. https://web.archive.org/web/20081010134414/http://donmaxwell.com/publications/MAPA_TEXT/_overlay/Fuel Tank Repair_How We Fix Them 2-05.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immelman Posted November 25, 2023 Report Share Posted November 25, 2023 (edited) I'm not on here much these days but if the OP still hasn't fixed it... The above link to the maxwell method of FINDING leaks is paramount. Get the plexiglass. Get the shop vac. And the soapy solution if you have to (Alternatively, water in the tank, looking for bubbles. If you use soap, you'll be using a lot of water anyway to cleaning out the soap properly. OP as I recall you posted a pic of fuel leaking from the inboard leading edge hole area, is that right? So get this, I had a leak that went down the forward spar, ended up in the cabin, and made a mess, an odor, etc. It traveled down the front spar..... it began.... midway aft, along a rib! The fuel's path of least resistance was to go forward, then sideways, and to the cabin. The leak was nowhere near where I thought. The culprit was compliance with an old AD/SB, where sealant on some aircraft was incorrectly applied over small holes along the wing rip, designed to let fuel not be trapped. The "repair" was someone gouging a bit of sealant out. That compromised the integrity of the seal there and eventually it leaked. My 50+ year sealant was good, the scraping on it, not so much. Once located the repair was pretty easy. A tiny bit of removal, an inch or two of new sealant, made sure the rib hole was not blocked.... boy, a lot easier than ferrying the airplane and having all tanks stripped. Yet it was still somewhat of a pain in the ass. Just less of a pain than the full reseal. Edited November 25, 2023 by Immelman 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huckster79 Posted January 10 Author Report Share Posted January 10 Well OP here, I have an appointment this spring with WetWingologist in Ft Lauderdale... We got into the repair, and though the sealant looked visually very nice, it was because it was fresh over old... Once we got scraping for the repair, the scraping was just too easy, the original stuff underneath, just crumbled... So I'll be taking a hop to FL, with a few fuel stops being I'll just be on Right tank now... But as much as I hoped to avoid it, now that we got deep into it, anything besides this feels like a bandaid at best... I don't want to be on a long trip and find it painting a wing blue like crazy again a long ways from home or having to chase leaks constantly... I guess it makes sense too, as she needs a new paint job one of these years, and may as well have this done first. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpro999 Posted January 10 Report Share Posted January 10 52 minutes ago, Huckster79 said: the scraping was just too easy I’m adding this to reoccurring happy dreams 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 On 11/17/2023 at 9:26 PM, DCarlton said: Seems like a lot of work to make those plexiglass plates unless you have them already. Takes about 2 minutes with a scroll saw. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCarlton Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 5 hours ago, Shadrach said: Takes about 2 minutes with a scroll saw. Just reread the article. I thought they were perfectly shaped and match drilled similar to the existing plates. I see they’re held in place by tape now. After reading, I’m wondering how to best remove the gummed up fuel residue on the outside to expose the entry point for the air to enter the tank. That slowly seeping fuel residue is hard to remove without removing paint. I’ve tried fuel, mineral spirits and acetone. And what if the fuel is leaking from an internal rib and running. Definitely an art to this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A64Pilot Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 Curious what did you get for a price quote for the reseal? I know what a neighbor with a Bravo that has extended range tanks told me what he paid and it was much more than I’m seeing here. Mine has the bladders, came with them and for me the 54 gl is plenty. Call it 50, in theory at 8 GPH that’s 6 hours, subtract the climb fuel and another layer of safety and it’s still 5 hours and 4 hours it’s time to stop and eat lunch? Over $7K will buy quite a bit of fuel. $7K div by 5 is 1400 gls, div by 8 GPH that’s 175 hours of fuel, or darn near 2 years for me. Wet wings and bladders seem to last longer if kept full, maybe drying out is bad on it or maybe it’s the sun heating them thing, but almost all Cessna bladders that go bad it seems the top is what goes first and what trips sending them in to be repaired. Attached photo is from todays IA renewal class, according to him increasing aeromatics in fuel is causing problems with fuel cells and any “rubber” including fuel tank sealer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huckster79 Posted January 12 Author Report Share Posted January 12 On 1/10/2024 at 5:08 PM, Kelpro999 said: I’m adding this to reoccurring happy dreams Besides the fact that it meant a full strip n seal I suppose if I was going for DIY strip it would be great! it still took a bit to get the spots fully clean but a bulk of the scrape was far too easy… I did t have anything else I wanted to spend 13 AMUs on anyway, lol. I think I should wait till 2025 to bring up a new paint job I want . But hey tanks will be freshly sealed so great time to paint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huckster79 Posted January 12 Author Report Share Posted January 12 25 minutes ago, A64Pilot said: Curious what did you get for a price quote for the reseal? I know what a neighbor with a Bravo that has extended range tanks told me what he paid and it was much more than I’m seeing here. Mine has the bladders, came with them and for me the 54 gl is plenty. Call it 50, in theory at 8 GPH that’s 6 hours, subtract the climb fuel and another layer of safety and it’s still 5 hours and 4 hours it’s time to stop and eat lunch? Over $7K will buy quite a bit of fuel. $7K div by 5 is 1400 gls, div by 8 GPH that’s 175 hours of fuel, or darn near 2 years for me. Wet wings and bladders seem to last longer if kept full, maybe drying out is bad on it or maybe it’s the sun heating them thing, but almost all Cessna bladders that go bad it seems the top is what goes first and what trips sending them in to be repaired. Attached photo is from todays IA renewal class, according to him increasing aeromatics in fuel is causing problems with fuel cells and any “rubber” including fuel tank sealer $5850/wing, mines an F so 64 gal, idk if diff models are diff price depending on size or not. I was really bumming making the call, but now it’s made I’m excited to have it fully addressed… get this done n start re-saving for a paint job… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCarlton Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 5 hours ago, A64Pilot said: Curious what did you get for a price quote for the reseal? I know what a neighbor with a Bravo that has extended range tanks told me what he paid and it was much more than I’m seeing here. Mine has the bladders, came with them and for me the 54 gl is plenty. Call it 50, in theory at 8 GPH that’s 6 hours, subtract the climb fuel and another layer of safety and it’s still 5 hours and 4 hours it’s time to stop and eat lunch? Over $7K will buy quite a bit of fuel. $7K div by 5 is 1400 gls, div by 8 GPH that’s 175 hours of fuel, or darn near 2 years for me. Wet wings and bladders seem to last longer if kept full, maybe drying out is bad on it or maybe it’s the sun heating them thing, but almost all Cessna bladders that go bad it seems the top is what goes first and what trips sending them in to be repaired. Attached photo is from todays IA renewal class, according to him increasing aeromatics in fuel is causing problems with fuel cells and any “rubber” including fuel tank sealer Sounds like you have the 54 gal bladder kit. How did they handle fuel gage calibration with 10 gallons less fuel when full ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A64Pilot Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 6 hours ago, DCarlton said: Sounds like you have the 54 gal bladder kit. How did they handle fuel gage calibration with 10 gallons less fuel when full ? I don’t know but don’t think it matters as gauges don’t indicate gls remaining but fractions of tank capacity, so at half I’m half of 54 and not 64. But to be honest I don’t trust the gauges, other airplanes but I’ve had them try to get me into trouble. I believe a majority of fuel exhaustion accidents aren’t from stupid people, but people who trust their gauges as much as they do their automobiles and one day the gauge gets stuck or maybe just because it’s age quits and leaves them without fuel. I stick my tanks and honestly almost always take off full and keep a log of fuel burned based on fuel flow meter and time. I almost always top off after each flight, I think it’s healthier for the bladders and I don’t mind the slight performance decrease from the weight. It’s a significant performance hit, but it’s worth it in my opinion. Plus keep an overly conservative reserve. I have run a tank dry in order to calibrate my fuel stick, the low fuel light seemed to work and plenty of warning under normal circumstances. I figure if you fly long enough everything that can happen will happen, like a big leak spring up in one tank, having extra in the other tank may come in handy then 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A64Pilot Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 11 hours ago, Huckster79 said: $5850/wing, mines an F so 64 gal, idk if diff models are diff price depending on size or not. I was really bumming making the call, but now it’s made I’m excited to have it fully addressed… get this done n start re-saving for a paint job… Number the neighbor gave me for having his tanks resealed recently at Wetwingologist in Fl was $25K, but he has the long range Monroy tank too I believe, I know long range tanks and assume they are STC not factory, he said bladders would have been about the same. I didn’t buy mine, PO did but they and the engine factored into me buying my aircraft. Its my opinion that bladders may add when it’s time to sell. He just had it done, he’s the guy that his neighbor backed her Volvo into the tail of his Mooney, part of the damage was the airplane was connected to a zero turn mower with a tow bar, the mower ended up under the left wing causing damage, no leaks but I believe the damage is in the tank area, but I only gave it a quick look, didn’t want to over scrutinize someone else misery if you know what I mean. He and I were the two Mooney’s in our airpark. Sad because I believe he’s put a whole bunch of money into the airplane and had gotten it where he wanted it and was into the enjoyment phase I guess you would call it, and this happens out of the blue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCarlton Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 On 1/12/2024 at 4:40 AM, A64Pilot said: I don’t know but don’t think it matters as gauges don’t indicate gls remaining but fractions of tank capacity, so at half I’m half of 54 and not 64. But to be honest I don’t trust the gauges, other airplanes but I’ve had them try to get me into trouble. I believe a majority of fuel exhaustion accidents aren’t from stupid people, but people who trust their gauges as much as they do their automobiles and one day the gauge gets stuck or maybe just because it’s age quits and leaves them without fuel. I stick my tanks and honestly almost always take off full and keep a log of fuel burned based on fuel flow meter and time. I almost always top off after each flight, I think it’s healthier for the bladders and I don’t mind the slight performance decrease from the weight. It’s a significant performance hit, but it’s worth it in my opinion. Plus keep an overly conservative reserve. I have run a tank dry in order to calibrate my fuel stick, the low fuel light seemed to work and plenty of warning under normal circumstances. I figure if you fly long enough everything that can happen will happen, like a big leak spring up in one tank, having extra in the other tank may come in handy then My gages indicate pounds, not fractions of tank capacity. I checked with Griggs; it sounds like they provide new decals or stickers for the gages to indicate the correct capacity. As time marches on, I'm started to like the idea of a once and done engineered solution as opposed to resealing which depends so heavily on the art and skill of resealing. Trying to find a reason to not go with bladders. I have a reseal appointment in April but I'm not confident I can get there with the MN weather in the spring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinecone Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 1 hour ago, DCarlton said: Trying to find a reason to not go with bladders. Increase in empty weight. Lower full capacity. And also not a forever fix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCarlton Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 1 hour ago, Pinecone said: Increase in empty weight. Lower full capacity. And also not a forever fix. Increase in empty weight I can live with. I can somewhat rationalize that 5 hours of fuel instead of 6 might be an OK thing; it would make it easier to keep the tanks topped off without carrying so much fuel around; although it makes it harder to tank up on cheap fuel when you can. Not a forever fix is concerning; what's the life expectancy; I'm guessing is much longer than I'll be flying or living but I do wonder about long term spare parts support should anything fail. I'm working on a list of questions: - how many kits have been installed - what's the outlook for long term parts support should Griggs get out of the business; would the STC be sold to another provider - what's the life expectancy of the system - do the access panels get sealed to prevent water from seeping in and getting between the bladders and the skin - what was the original AD and what was the fix exactly - confirmation that updated fuel gage decals are available for my specific gages - are there any experienced west coast installers - TBD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinecone Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 27 minutes ago, DCarlton said: - what's the outlook for long term parts support should Griggs get out of the business; would the STC be sold to another provider Maybe, maybe not. Many STCs are abandoned without support. - what's the life expectancy of the system A long time, but the same if they are properly sealed A couple of answers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCarlton Posted January 18 Report Share Posted January 18 6 hours ago, Pinecone said: A couple of answers. True. Two things are driving my interest in bladders. Can I make it to MN in April (weather). I live in SOCAL. I’m a spoiled fair weather flyer. If I fly home after the reseal and there is a leak, can I make it back for warranty repairs. The older I get, the less likely I am to successfully make the trip and the clock is ticking. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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