Insurance Quotes

[MikeOH]

Another counterpoint to the 'joys' of an EV:

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2024/01/a_cold_el_nino_winter_reveals_yet_another_problem_with_electric_vehicles.html

This paragraph from the article encapsulates my opinion:

"If EVs were just another vehicle in a competitive marketplace, I wouldn’t squawk about them. The marketplace would force them to become better, or they’d drop out entirely, except for a small band of enthusiasts. The reason they deserve to be exposed, denigrated, and ridiculed is that our government hasn’t just put its thumb on the scale in favor of EVs. Instead, it’s put its entire jackboot on the scale in favor of a car that’s inefficient, dirty, environmentally corrupt, and dangerous for drivers."

A retired person living in Florida that has no need to hold a real schedule, nor make long trips (that's what the plane is for!) is NOT a representative sample of the population that is being coerced into buying, and IMHO suffering, with an EV.

As they say around here, better understand and well define your mission before buying an EV

[PT20J]

I’m always persuaded by arguments that include jackboots. 

[Hank]

9 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Problem is there is very little if any servicing for an EV, no oil changes, transmission servicing, brakes last hundreds of thousands of miles etc. Sure there is some warranty work, but warranty work pays poorly. EV’s still have shocks and tires etc but from a complexity perspective they are simple things, no emission controls. fuel systems transmissions etc.

Yep, you're right. That must be why Hertz is selling all 20,000 EVs they have, and buying cars with gasoline engines, to keep their mechanics busy.

If EVs were such a great bargain, the car rental companies would load up on them and let many of their service people go.

Me? I'll have one when I can neither buy another real car, nor afford gas to run the one that I keep until the end. Too manynissues with electric cars. Oh, look, the Europeans just found out that electric city buses don't work very well in winter, too. 

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

I’m always persuaded by arguments that include jackboots. 

@PT20J

And I'm always persuaded by snide remarks unrelated to actual cogent counter arguments.  Congrats on the laugh likes you got; makes it all worthwhile.

DId you actually read the article?  Do you deny that the government is highly subsidizing EVs with our tax dollars?  Do you deny states like California have passed actual laws to eliminate the sale of ICE vehicles?  Ultimately,  do you believe those actions are consistent with a free society?  Why not let consumers decide what to buy (kind of the point to the article)? Or are those actions okay simply because you believe in EVs?

Frankly, we shouldn't even be discussing this on MS.  I stayed quiet day after day while A64 raves on and on about how perfect his EV is.  Great for him.  But to think that's the only side to the EV situation is head-in-the-sand naive.  It's sure interesting that when I bring up counter arguments with actual citations to sources, versus just one SGOTI, I'm ridiculed??

What say we drop this whole EV discussion and get back to Mooneys?

How about it, @A64Pilot?

[Skates97]

10 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

The car dealers are leading the charge against EV’s most will tell you not to buy, many if you want a test drive will tell you they don’t have one charged etc. 

Why is this?

If you have any dealer friends ask them how much they make from their service dept, many will tell you that its the profit center, that they make good money in servicing.

Problem is there is very little if any servicing for an EV, no oil changes, transmission servicing, brakes last hundreds of thousands of miles etc. Sure there is some warranty work, but warranty work pays poorly. EV’s still have shocks and tires etc but from a complexity perspective they are simple things, no emission controls. fuel systems transmissions etc.

So if a dealer sells a gas car often he has a service customer, if he sells an EV he won’t usually see that car again except for warranty. That wipes out his service profits.

There is a HUGE reason for the whole industry not to switch to EV’s in the short term, only reason they were headed that way was promises of Government subsidies etc.

The Japanese are fighting against EV’s in Japan, to switch would just about wipe out their economy as most parts manufacturing goes away and must switch to other things and they don’t want the pain switching would bring, so they are playing the hydrogen game which has been a successful delaying tactic for the last 20 years.

Um... We sell a lot of EV's. They are all charged and we are happy to sell them. They provide a decent profit up front and because they are far from the perfect vehicle we do very well in service on the EV's. 

Most people don't keep EV's much past the warranty. Most are leased, not purchased. I can assure you that our Service departments are doing very well with the EV's we sell. It may be warranty work but that is passed right back to the customer in the cost of the vehicles. If it wasn't for the government subsidies for EV's they would go away. 

Between our three Dealerships we sell 40% of the GM vehicles in Orange County. As CFO of those stores I have what I would say is a good grasp on the financial side of the equation and the EV's are hardly the death knell you make them out to be. 

[N201MKTurbo]

I have to go to the east coast next week. I rented a car from Hertz. Their website was trying very hard to get me to rent an electric vehicle. The reason I didn’t, is simple. I have no experience with electric vehicles. I don’t know where to find charging stations and I won’t have time on this trip to learn. I’m sure I could figure it out if I half tried, but that’s not what the trip is about. 

[Skates97]

Back on the original topic of insurance quotes, this has gotten so far off the rails I can't remember if I mentioned my Dec 2023 renewal. Same coverage as 2022, same premium. Maybe the market is stabilizing a little? No new ratings, flew 155 hours, inching close to 1000 total hours.

[A64Pilot]

8 hours ago, Skates97 said:

Back on the original topic of insurance quotes, this has gotten so far off the rails I can't remember if I mentioned my Dec 2023 renewal. Same coverage as 2022, same premium. Maybe the market is stabilizing a little? No new ratings, flew 155 hours, inching close to 1000 total hours.

I’ll find out this year soon I think, don’t remember when my renewal is but Feb maybe?

Even if the market stabilizes we still have some inflation with us. Never have understood why even a low rate is considered normal

[A64Pilot]

9 hours ago, MikeOH said:

@PT20J

And I'm always persuaded by snide remarks unrelated to actual cogent counter arguments.  Congrats on the laugh likes you got; makes it all worthwhile.

DId you actually read the article?  Do you deny that the government is highly subsidizing EVs with our tax dollars?  Do you deny states like California have passed actual laws to eliminate the sale of ICE vehicles?  Ultimately,  do you believe those actions are consistent with a free society?  Why not let consumers decide what to buy (kind of the point to the article)? Or are those actions okay simply because you believe in EVs?

Frankly, we shouldn't even be discussing this on MS.  I stayed quiet day after day while A64 raves on and on about how perfect his EV is.  Great for him.  But to think that's the only side to the EV situation is head-in-the-sand naive.  It's sure interesting that when I bring up counter arguments with actual citations to sources, versus just one SGOTI, I'm ridiculed??

What say we drop this whole EV discussion and get back to Mooneys?

How about it, @A64Pilot?

Most everything you decry is about the Government, not the vehicles, and I’ve agreed over and over, yet that’s ignored.

Then most everything quoted negative about them is pure BS, like the guy who spent $200 in a cold day charging his, he was cold sitting in the charging car. Think for a sec, Supercharging is twice as expensive as home charging at 34 c per KWH, so he charged his battery 12 times from full dead to 100% in one day? Why was he cold in the car? Run the heater, he’s plugged into a huge source of power, or it takes 40 hours charging to cross the country etc. it’s all BS and is history repeating itself, the same people made huge claims about how horrible the Prius was, and every bit of that was BS.

Has Ford and GM et all made a mess of it? I’d suspect so as I think their sudden love for EV’s was actually a money grab, and you don’t go from zero to full throttle overnight without making a mess

Every single thing quoted is BS, Sure Elon employees child slave labor in his battery plant in Nevada,  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigafactory_Nevada and his new Lithium refinery in Texas is raping the earth https://www.tesla.com/blog/tesla-lithium-refinery-groundbreaking.

Did you know or do you care that a Tesla is made almost entirely in the US? Yes there is a Chinese factory but those cars aren’t imported into the US, the cheapest Tesla does now use a Chinese battery, because Tesla couldn’t build batteries fast enough.

The Model Y, 3, X and S are all produced in Fremont, California, with the Y also produced in Austin, Texas, where Tesla is headquartered. Tesla claims 100% domestic production for all cars it sells in the United States, above the industry's 52% average, according to Cars.com.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/2023/06/21/tesla-model-y-most-american-made-car-for-second-year-in-a-row/70326488007/#:~:text=The Model Y%2C 3%2C X,While neither General Motors Co.

I doubt the 100% claim, nothing is 100% but whatever it is it’s way above 52%.

I agree, I got zero subsidy when we bought ours and don’t think they should be subsidized, but the same people keep ignoring that.

But enough about EV’s , I don’t start these thread drifts, I just respond to posts based on ignorance.

No one has to like anything, I don’t like SUV’s but at least don’t just spout ignorance, and quote nut job internet links, at least base your dislike on logic and experience.

[Parker_Woodruff]

9 hours ago, Skates97 said:

Back on the original topic of insurance quotes, this has gotten so far off the rails I can't remember if I mentioned my Dec 2023 renewal. Same coverage as 2022, same premium. Maybe the market is stabilizing a little? No new ratings, flew 155 hours, inching close to 1000 total hours.

And a New Year has passed and I haven't yet found any big attempts by underwriters to try and get rates up.

And *another* aviation underwriter is entering the market...

[A64Pilot]

13 minutes ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

And a New Year has passed and I haven't yet found any big attempts by underwriters to try and get rates up.

And *another* aviation underwriter is entering the market...

Everything reaches a point at which if priced higher profits will go down based on decreased business, perhaps we are reaching that with Aviation insurance? However from my perspective Aircraft insurance hasn’t seemed to outpace the inflation rate for most things say food for instance, but mirror it.

From 2018 to 2022, the all-food Consumer Price Index (CPI) rose by a total of 20.4 percent

https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/ag-and-food-statistics-charting-the-essentials/food-prices-and-spending/?topicId=1afac93a-444e-4e05-99f3-53217721a8be

 

I pay more than most at my experience level as I’m based off a grass strip, yet when I compare what my aircraft insurance is compared to the Motorhome I just bought, the Airplane is actually less, the Motorhome’s agreed value is 20% less than the Mooney, but priced the same or very close, and that’s with me based on grass, so it would be much better if I was based at a public airport, so Motorhome insurance is it seems way more expensive.

I don’t think the biggest part of increased insurance cost is from excessive profit taking, I think a large part of it is from lawsuits and the amount and way lawyers are paid. In short while it seems many on the news are crying for insurance reform I don’t think that’s it, what we need is reform and controls for the excessive number of lawsuits I think and if we had that perhaps that would drive insurance down. I’m sick of the “I got hit by a careless driver and Dan got me 1.5 Million dollars” ads.

Just based on the excessive amount of injury lawyer advertising it must be very lucrative to support so much advertising, and of course they advertise they aren’t sueing people, just insurance companies so they don’t hurt anyone just help you.

 

In short I don’t know how much every one else’s has increased but as many of us pay one large bill every year as opposed to monthly we see the big yearly increase as opposed to the smaller gradual monthly increase.

It just may be that our insurance rates have been pretty much mirroring the increase in food as an example?

Thats a supposition though I’d be interested to hear examples of percentages of insurance increase year over year as I’m new to the aircraft insurance myself.

[Fly Boomer]

10 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I don’t know where to find charging stations and I won’t have time on this trip to learn.

I would do the same as you unless I had time on my hands, but it's my understanding that the car will tell you when it's time to charge (way before empty), and navigate you to the next "gas" station that's on or close to your route.  Also, especially in cold weather, the car is smart enough to pre-heat its battery so that, by the time you reach the supercharger, it's ready to be charged at an optimum rate.  My understanding is that, generally speaking, Teslas are only charged to 100% when they sit in your garage overnight because the closer the battery gets to 100%, the slower the charge rate.  At a supercharger, you can add up to about 200 miles in 15 minutes.

[Pinecone]

13 hours ago, Hank said:

Oh, look, the Europeans just found out that electric city buses don't work very well in winter, too. 

Although a number of Euro cities have electric buses, but using overhead power wires, not batteries.  They work very well.

[Hank]

26 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

At a supercharger, you can add up to about 200 miles in 15 minutes.

At a gas pump, I can add over 600 miles to my Altima in 5 minutes . . . .

[Fly Boomer]

10 minutes ago, Hank said:

At a gas pump, I can add over 600 miles to my Altima in 5 minutes . . . .

Your point is well taken, and I could probably fill up in 5 minutes too.  But probably 10 or 15 minutes is more likely for me.  Bottom line is that, with something around 300 miles range in a Tesla, and given that they don't usually charge to 100% when on the road, it is going to take more minutes of "filling up" in the Tesla.  That said, unless you are on a road trip, the number of minutes out of your life for each fill-up is normally zero -- it charges to 100% every night while parked in your garage.

EDIT:  How does your Altima go 600 miles?  My Prius only goes about 400.  I might be able to go 500, but I'm not willing to risk running out.

[Hank]

41 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

Your point is well taken, and I could probably fill up in 5 minutes too.  But probably 10 or 15 minutes is more likely for me.  Bottom line is that, with something around 300 miles range in a Tesla, and given that they don't usually charge to 100% when on the road, it is going to take more minutes of "filling up" in the Tesla.  That said, unless you are on a road trip, the number of minutes out of your life for each fill-up is normally zero -- it charges to 100% every night while parked in your garage.

EDIT:  How does your Altima go 600 miles?  My Prius only goes about 400.  I might be able to go 500, but I'm not willing to risk running out.

Here's a normal look at my dash. Just a cheap base model, nothing fancy, nothing special. I generally refill with 14-15 gallons.

Suddenly I can't attach a photo, "Add files" now brings up the camera to take a photo, but the ones already taken no longer exist to this button!

[Hank]

Had to go.into Setting and disallow Chrome from accessing the camera. Now it works like it's supposed to.

This was a typical recent fillup, arriving at or enroute to the station.

[A64Pilot]

2 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

I would do the same as you unless I had time on my hands, but it's my understanding that the car will tell you when it's time to charge (way before empty), and navigate you to the next "gas" station that's on or close to your route.  Also, especially in cold weather, the car is smart enough to pre-heat its battery so that, by the time you reach the supercharger, it's ready to be charged at an optimum rate.  My understanding is that, generally speaking, Teslas are only charged to 100% when they sit in your garage overnight because the closer the battery gets to 100%, the slower the charge rate.  At a supercharger, you can add up to about 200 miles in 15 minutes.

A few statements if you don’t mind. For day to day driving you should only charge to 80%, this according to Tesla not me, but I understand why and concur

As a general rule every 10% less than 100 you charge a Li-ion battery doubles its cycle life, of course there is a point of diminishing returns. So again according to Tesla you should only charge to 100% if needed for trips.

What this means is of course a prudent shopper shouldn’t take the claimed range at face value but reduce it to 80% and I’d go even further and reduce it to 50% just for unplanned side trips or whatever and using the AC or heat to pre-condition the car, and just because I’m risk adverse, so in my opinion if 50% range won’t cover your day to day driving and work charging isn’t a thing perhaps a Tesla is not a good choice for you. I would go further and say that if you don’t own a home where you can install a charger that a Tesla may not be a good choice. No proof that Supercharging reduces battery life, but it’s pretty accepted that rapid charging a Li-ion does, and besides it’s roughly twice as expensive as home charging, so I almost never Supercharge, only for trips. In our experience not having to stop for gas a couple times a week more than makes up for the charge time you spend when traveling, only you can decide that though. I’ve met more than a couple of people that have Tesla’s that came with free Supercharging that as Retired people they do extensive traveling because the charging is free, some have hundreds of thousands of miles in their cars and they aren’t dead yet, so who knows.

The only real high mileage cars I know of are / were in S California and shuttled people from one airport to another and racked up as much as 17,000 miles a month, called Tesloop. Their cars were the earlier Tesla’s Model S and X but seemed to hold up.

https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-cars/a2155251/how-do-300k-mile-teslas-hold-ev-fleet-operator-has-some-interesting-data/ 

So of course no one vehicle is best for everyone, I used to need a Dually, but most don’t, and I don’t anymore. But I do miss the BAT, kids name for it.

If navigating to a Supercharger almost always even in Summer the car will pre-condition the battery, the only exception that I’ve seen is if the charge level is too low to support pre-conditioning. It pops up a message that tells you it’s pre-conditioning and if you listen you can hear the heat pump increase speed. The heat pump is used to keep the battery at optimum temps regardless of OAT and not that I have experienced it but just like a Hybrid range drops in cold Wx, in severe cold probably by a lot. Often in Hot Summer Fl Wx 5 min or so into Supercharging you will hear the heat pump ramp up higher than you ever hear it driving, I assume it’s cooling the battery then because rapid charging creates a lot of heat. I can’t find the size of the heat pump but I think it’s large, my guess is maybe over 5 tons as it heats and or cools everything, car, battery, drive train, computers etc. The car drips water from three places in hot humid Fl.

If just driving around the car does not calculate when you need to divert to a charger, that’s on you. However if you simply tell the car where you are going, usually only need the business name it will calculate the amount of battery required to get there and you can make multiple nav points or round trip, if needed it will direct you to a Supercharger. So if it’s a question simply push the button on the right side of the steering wheel and say go to xx, it uses the internet to find your destination.

If you get into the Boonies charging stations are few and far in between. I feel certain for example if you live in Montana that a Tesla would not be a good car to have for example or any other sparsely populated area, surely they are best near populated areas and if traveling on the Interstate if anything there is an excess of chargers, back roads in small towns? Most probably not, in fact in Rural Alabama you had to pay attention.

It’s a little like flying, surely we all check fuel before we plan a flight and not just head out with the plan of I’ll stop when the low fuel light comes on. If you adopt the airplane attitude and think about fuel in your Tesla before you head out you will be fine and or find out if your destination is feasible, I’m sure many are not. My worst case scenario is I’ll charge from a drier plug or maybe an RV park, but I’ve never had to do either.

[neilpilot]

2 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Although a number of Euro cities have electric buses, but using overhead power wires, not batteries.  They work very well.

Some US cities also have electric buses.  We visit Martha's Vineyard every fall, and for the last 2 years have noted that many of the buses are EVs.  They've even installed inductive charging pads at a few of the bus stops.  I think their inductive charging stations are mostly a feel good exercise and a waste of grant money, since the bus is over the pad only a short time and receives little or no kWh input. 

[Will.iam]

update I found the original YouTube link and it’s not hundreds but thousands of cars!

 

 

 

http://gofile.me/6zWE9/WKwmAcorR

i tried to share the link from my telegram chat but you can only share the link with other telegram users. I downloaded the video to upload it here only to find out you can not upload the video. So I put it on my synology server and shared the link above. I don’t have a web server for it so it throws up a warning it’s not a trusted site. But I don’t want to pay for a certificate key so I just accept the warning.  It’s a video about how wasteful the Chinese government has been in producing hundreds of electric cars just to say they make more cars than Tesla but then they just parked them out in a field!!! They are not selling them to anyone. Now they just sit and rot and a new worry to what all those lithium ion batteries will do to the land and environment when they start leaking and corroding away. It’s bad enough we are destroying our environment with digging for these rare earth metals but then to not even use them and let them waste away is doing double the damage. 

[A64Pilot]

I believe inductive charging is also inefficient.

https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-412-charging-without-wires#:~:text=Adding the losses of the,is only 75–80 percent.

But these busses and the school busses etc that are out there are I believe at best Kludges, by that I mean most are pretty much not any more evolved than what a good backyard mechanic can build, take a Diesel School bus, pull the motor source a rear axle drive motor from God knows where, a huge amount of batteries and other mostly off the shelf components and there you go.

What do you think these things odds of success long term are?

The first Tesla’s had many problems it’s the way anything new is, Tesla has been working the bugs out of their Truck for years and is now running a small fleet I’m sure to work out more bugs.

Most EV’s I think could be placed into this category, with anything new there is a learning curve, the more of a hurry you are in and the more push there is about launching the new vehicle soon, the more likely it is that there will be problems, some not so minor. 

[MikeOH]

15 minutes ago, Will.iam said:

http://gofile.me/6zWE9/WKwmAcorR

That was eye opening!

[Will.iam]

7 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

That was eye opening!

Yes whether you love or hate EV’s I think everyone can agree what china is doing hurts everyone as they are using what precious resources we have and then not even allowing anyone to buy the product! At least sell those cars or even give them away so that some one can at least benefit from the resources china took. There has to be a way to sell those cars and not just let them rot. 

[A64Pilot]

31 minutes ago, Will.iam said:

http://gofile.me/6zWE9/WKwmAcorR

i tried to share the link from my telegram chat but you can only share the link with other telegram users. I downloaded the video to upload it here only to find out you can not upload the video. So I put it on my synology server and shared the link above. I don’t have a web server for it so it throws up a warning it’s not a trusted site. But I don’t want to pay for a certificate key so I just accept the warning.  It’s a video about how wasteful the Chinese government has been in producing hundreds of electric cars just to say they make more cars than Tesla but then they just parked them out in a field!!! They are not selling them to anyone. Now they just sit and rot and a new worry to what all those lithium ion batteries will do to the land and environment when they start leaking and corroding away. It’s bad enough we are destroying our environment with digging for these rare earth metals but then to not even use them and let them waste away is doing double the damage. 

I was able to watch most of it, it froze up when the guy started talking about the environment.

 Normally I’d cry BS, but the Chinese have a history of this kind of behavior, they apparently have entire empty cities from some kind of real estate fraud deal

Since we are doing videos watch this one, hundreds of Billions of dollars of waste, I know China has unimaginable wealth but can they continue to survive with this much waste? I try to link to believable sites, this is Wall Street Journal

Google China’s ghost cities, it’s not just one.

‘Maybe they should put those cars and bicycles in the Ghost Cities?

 

[Schllc]

This was the point I brought up some time ago about the “ecological improvements”

Are the really improvements?  I mean when you factor in the energy to produce, disposal,  the life span, etc.  
These elements have to factor in to the equation.  I have a feeling some of them are causing more harm than good.  Politicians are making these decisions based on what they “feel” and what lobbyists tell them,  or statistical analysis of the entire impact.  

When someone does a compressive study on the impact in totality I will listen, until then I am very suspect.