More maintinance frustrations....

[hubcap]

Reading thru this thread again makes me so thankful for the shop that takes care of Myrtle. I couldn't be happier with the guys that keep her in great shape. The only bad experience I have had is with the shop that did my avionics upgrade...and it was a very painful experience indeed.

[McMooney]

Sorry you are having such a bad go of it, i know it's beyond frustrating.  

I believe you're around texas, so if you need a new shop  try B&K aviation at kaxh,  Brian and Marshall can sort damn near anything on a mooney. 

 

[Austintatious]

Well, I have to update this nightmare one more time as I think I have ironed out the last of the problems. 

I cannot remember if I had mentioned it or not, but after the annual that began all this craziness, the number 5 cylinder was running even hotter than it usually did... It has always been my hot cylinder but it was significantly hotter than it had been.  I had been working with gami to narrow the gami spread.  I knew that they had removed and cleaned the injectors so I figured this was the reason for the change.  It was strange because the hotter temp would sort of come and go and vary with each flight.  Of course we are trouble shooting and analyzing as we went... Once I had what seemed to be a decent set of data, I sent it off to gami for a tune of the injectors... and I asked them to try to make the number 5 the most rich of them all (still trying to keep the gami spread tight)  to attempt to keep its temp down.  I got the new injectors and worked with an A&P to install them...

Upon removing the number 5 injector, we found a loose chunk of rubber floating around inside the injector... Either an old rubber seal was used or it was not put together properly...nonetheless, the piece of rubber was blocking airflow from the pressurized induction system and causing all sorts of fuel flow variability and restriction.

 

After putting in the new injector a few months ago, the engine is running very well with a tighter gami spread and a cooler number 5 and I think I am happy and confident things are how they are supposed to be.

 

I swear on the next annual, no one is touching anything that does not 100 percent HAVE to be touched on my airplane.  So sick of mechanics breaking my plane by doing inspections.

[wombat]

I'm really glad you found a cause for your #5 temp being crazy.  

Is all of the rest of the stuff fixed?   Lighting, ASI, autopilot, etc?

 

I'm still fixing my Rocket after my most recent annual.    The pitch trim servo is on its way to an autopilot shop for IRAN.

[A64Pilot]

It’s been years but I would get a clogged injector randomly, tiny bits of rubber, like grains if that makes sense. Only wound get one grain in an injector.

Turned out that it was coming from an old fuel hose.

[McMooney]

16 hours ago, Austintatious said:

Well, I have to update this nightmare one more time as I think I have ironed out the last of the problems. 

I cannot remember if I had mentioned it or not, but after the annual that began all this craziness, the number 5 cylinder was running even hotter than it usually did... It has always been my hot cylinder but it was significantly hotter than it had been.  I had been working with gami to narrow the gami spread.  I knew that they had removed and cleaned the injectors so I figured this was the reason for the change.  It was strange because the hotter temp would sort of come and go and vary with each flight.  Of course we are trouble shooting and analyzing as we went... Once I had what seemed to be a decent set of data, I sent it off to gami for a tune of the injectors... and I asked them to try to make the number 5 the most rich of them all (still trying to keep the gami spread tight)  to attempt to keep its temp down.  I got the new injectors and worked with an A&P to install them...

Upon removing the number 5 injector, we found a loose chunk of rubber floating around inside the injector... Either an old rubber seal was used or it was not put together properly...nonetheless, the piece of rubber was blocking airflow from the pressurized induction system and causing all sorts of fuel flow variability and restriction.

 

After putting in the new injector a few months ago, the engine is running very well with a tighter gami spread and a cooler number 5 and I think I am happy and confident things are how they are supposed to be.

 

I swear on the next annual, no one is touching anything that does not 100 percent HAVE to be touched on my airplane.  So sick of mechanics breaking my plane by doing inspections.

I generally have a sim experience, get birdy working perfectly a month or two before mx is scheduled to break her

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, McMooney said:

I generally have a sim experience, get birdy working perfectly a month or two before mx is scheduled to break her

I wonder if this sort of thing is more common to Mooneys. I too have had more than one experience like yours.

I would recommend folks photograph there nose truss any time the plane is dropped for maintenance. 50/50 chance that the shop that found my dented truss during annual employed the person that dented it.

had another shop insist on pulling my 400hr Bendix mags for IRAN and time it into the wrong hemisphere on reinstallation.

And many many more. 

You don’t really know what’s been done until you get involved personally or find a really solid mx pro.

We all make mistakes; the incentive structure with regard to correcting vs masking them is very different in owner involved mx.

My worst experiences have been with large repair stations.

[Austintatious]

Going through the annual "mess up a good airplane" routine again..... So I thought I would document it here so all yall can chuckle at my apparent bad luck.

Plane went for annual, was doing very well overall... Shop was asked to perform an annual and address a few minor squawks... In fact, before even sending it to them I SPECIFICALLY asked if they would be able to take the time to address the squawks and extra work which consisted of a few instrument lights being out.   I also asked them to THOROUGHLY vet/adjust the fuel flows and to inspect the fuel indicating system as a tank ran out on me with about 8 gallons still showing on the gauge...

Well, the shop failed to address my squawks or inspect the fuel indicating system... they simply didn't do it.  They adjusted the fuel flows and it is now very strange, something is wrong... I don't believe that it is a danger but it just isn't right and on top of that, whatever they did now has the #5 once again running hotter than it ever has after all the effort I went through with GAMI to get it under control.  I have no idea what they could have done to cause this, but I do know that it is a drastic difference from when it went in.  Before I would see maybe 390 degrees when climbing out and would run about 370 in cruise... Now I am seeing 410 degrees (470 is redline)  in climb and about 390 in level flight... Furthermore, I cant lean... that is to say, with the mixture knob all the way in for the climb, when I reduce the throttle and the RPM, the fuel flow is already where it is supposed to be... I used to have to back it down about 3-5 GPH to bring it to what it should be.

And, as a nice little bonus... the cherry on top of the miserable maintenance crap pie I have swallowed all but 1 annual since owning this aircraft... They forgot to re-install an inspection panel.  The other owner accepted it from the shop, didn't catch it and then brought the plane to me... I accepted it and did normal pre-flights.  Flew it a few times and then when I went under the aircraft to tie it down I see the missing panel underneath the wing next to the gear door.  Shop cant find it, says  "it may have been stolen"..... If that happened, it was a polite thief because they put the panel screws back in without the panel there.

I'm close to being able to bail on the certified world and go experimental... real close and I cant wait.  I am tired of people taking my money to mess up my aircraft.

 

[Shadrach]

57 minutes ago, Austintatious said:

Going through the annual "mess up a good airplane" routine again..... So I thought I would document it here so all yall can chuckle at my apparent bad luck.

Plane went for annual, was doing very well overall... Shop was asked to perform an annual and address a few minor squawks... In fact, before even sending it to them I SPECIFICALLY asked if they would be able to take the time to address the squawks and extra work which consisted of a few instrument lights being out.   I also asked them to THOROUGHLY vet/adjust the fuel flows and to inspect the fuel indicating system as a tank ran out on me with about 8 gallons still showing on the gauge...

Well, the shop failed to address my squawks or inspect the fuel indicating system... they simply didn't do it.  They adjusted the fuel flows and it is now very strange, something is wrong... I don't believe that it is a danger but it just isn't right and on top of that, whatever they did now has the #5 once again running hotter than it ever has after all the effort I went through with GAMI to get it under control.  I have no idea what they could have done to cause this, but I do know that it is a drastic difference from when it went in.  Before I would see maybe 390 degrees when climbing out and would run about 370 in cruise... Now I am seeing 410 degrees (470 is redline)  in climb and about 390 in level flight... Furthermore, I cant lean... that is to say, with the mixture knob all the way in for the climb, when I reduce the throttle and the RPM, the fuel flow is already where it is supposed to be... I used to have to back it down about 3-5 GPH to bring it to what it should be.

And, as a nice little bonus... the cherry on top of the miserable maintenance crap pie I have swallowed all but 1 annual since owning this aircraft... They forgot to re-install an inspection panel.  The other owner accepted it from the shop, didn't catch it and then brought the plane to me... I accepted it and did normal pre-flights.  Flew it a few times and then when I went under the aircraft to tie it down I see the missing panel underneath the wing next to the gear door.  Shop cant find it, says  "it may have been stolen"..... If that happened, it was a polite thief because they put the panel screws back in without the panel there.

I'm close to being able to bail on the certified world and go experimental... real close and I cant wait.  I am tired of people taking my money to mess up my aircraft.

 

this reads like a number of things could’ve happened. Have you verified that the injectors are in the correct position? It’s possible they removed them to clean them and did not reinstall them in the proper cylinders.

With regard to the fuel system, I hate to say it, but this is something you need to be actively involved in. They may have leaned out your your fuel flow in an attempt to get it under “red line”.   Like anything, if you were asking to have something addressed on your Aircraft, you need to be very specific about the desired outcome. When I had my fuel servo overhauled, I wrote on the intake ticket that I wanted it set as rich as possible within the specification range. The servo I got back yielded a much cooler running engine. My EGT’s were ~ 60-80° cooler then they were prior to rebuild. They did exactly what I asked. Had I just said rebuild it, who knows what the outcome would’ve been. 
 

I feel your pain. You might be a good candidate for Savvy Maintenance. It seems like lightning is striking the same place over and over again.

[Austintatious]

36 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

this reads like a number of things could’ve happened. Have you verified that the injectors are in the correct position? It’s possible they removed them to clean them and did not reinstall them in the proper cylinders.

 

With regard to the fuel system, I hate to say it, but this is something you need to be actively involved in. They may have leaned out your your fuel flow in an attempt to get it under “red line”.   Like anything, if you were asking to have something addressed on your Aircraft, you need to be very specific about the desired outcome. When I had my fuel servo overhauled, I wrote on the intake ticket that I wanted it set as rich as possible within the specification range. The servo I got back yielded a much cooler running engine. My EGT’s were ~ 60-80° cooler then they were prior to rebuild. They did exactly what I asked. Had I just said rebuild it, who knows what the outcome would’ve been. 
 

I feel your pain. You might be a good candidate for Savvy Maintenance. It seems like lightning is striking the same place over and over again.

I considered this... we checked to see that they did not mix up the cylinders for the injectors last time around, but I have not checked it for this time... I am close to an oil change and will do it then.

You make a good point about being specific.  The reason I was having them adjust the fuel was because at WOT the fuel flow was going so high the mixture was getting rich enough to cause misfires  ... I would have to back out of the throttle to stop it... Which wasn't a big deal, I would just go to 35/25 pretty quickly after T/O, mostly a problem in very cold weather, not so much in the hot weather.  That was the issue I told them about since we are about to be in the cold.... I didn't mention trying to keep it rich to have it run cool because that was not the issue.

I am about convinced there is something else happening in my fuel system that is causing the #5 to run lean.  Perhaps contamination in the fuel manifold or the number 5 fuel line.  I have had gami adjust the number 5 injector 2 or 3 times, each time trying to cause 5 to peak later than the other cylinders, but still number 5 is peaking 1st or second.

I did the Savvy thing a while back. I did not find it terribly helpful other than their pre-buy assistance program. They seem to have a lot of experience with Cirrus and I have no doubt that they are worth their weight in gold for those who own a cirrus. 

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, Austintatious said:

I considered this... we checked to see that they did not mix up the cylinders for the injectors last time around, but I have not checked it for this time... I am close to an oil change and will do it then.

You make a good point about being specific.  The reason I was having them adjust the fuel was because at WOT the fuel flow was going so high the mixture was getting rich enough to cause misfires  ... I would have to back out of the throttle to stop it... Which wasn't a big deal, I would just go to 35/25 pretty quickly after T/O, mostly a problem in very cold weather, not so much in the hot weather.  That was the issue I told them about since we are about to be in the cold.... I didn't mention trying to keep it rich to have it run cool because that was not the issue.

I am about convinced there is something else happening in my fuel system that is causing the #5 to run lean.  Perhaps contamination in the fuel manifold or the number 5 fuel line.  I have had gami adjust the number 5 injector 2 or 3 times, each time trying to cause 5 to peak later than the other cylinders, but still number 5 is peaking 1st or second.

I did the Savvy thing a while back. I did not find it terribly helpful other than their pre-buy assistance program. They seem to have a lot of experience with Cirrus and I have no doubt that they are worth their weight in gold for those who own a cirrus. 

Weird that an overly rich mixture manifests symptoms on cold, dense days but less in the warm months. The opposite would make more sense.  If you took it into the shop complaining of an overly rich mixture, I’m not surprised it came back leaner.  A misfire that is induced by a rich mixture would be preceded by a significant power loss.  Are you sure this issue was caused by a rich mixture? 

 

 

[Austintatious]

10 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Weird that an overly rich mixture manifests symptoms on cold, dense days but less in the warm months. The opposite would make more sense.  If you took it into the shop complaining of an overly rich mixture, I’m not surprised it came back leaner.  A misfire that is induced by a rich mixture would be preceded by a significant power loss.  Are you sure this issue was caused by a rich mixture? 

 

 

Uhh, yes, quite sure....  There DEFINITELY was a loss of power coupled with a stuttering and the highest I saw the fuel flow was over 40 GPH.  That was in the winter in very cold temps.  In summer the flow would go to about 36 GPH when it was supposed to be 32.

Backing off full power to 35" reduced the flow to normal and all was fine, still plenty of climb power at 35"

[Pinecone]

There are some good shops out there.  Where are you located?

[Austintatious]

DFW

 

We have decided to just take our aircraft to Maxwell in Longview from now on.

[EricJ]

6 minutes ago, Austintatious said:

DFW

 

We have decided to just take our aircraft to Maxwell in Longview from now on.

They're not infallible, either, but seem to be more careful and more amenable to being helpful when things do come out suboptimally.   Definitely a good option when practical.   A long-time Mooney owner based here in Phoenix takes his airplane there for annuals.

[Will.iam]

10 hours ago, Austintatious said:

DFW

 

We have decided to just take our aircraft to Maxwell in Longview from now on.

I live in DFW area we should get together sometime.  SWTA is an excellent shop as well unfortunately because they are good they are hard to get into.

were are you based out of?

[Z W]

Maxwell fixed our fuel flow engine setup after another shop had it all messed up.  They've done well by me.

[Austintatious]

11 hours ago, Will.iam said:

I live in DFW area we should get together sometime.  SWTA is an excellent shop as well unfortunately because they are good they are hard to get into.

were are you based out of?

Plane is at KFTW... I fly professionally out of KDAL.

I looked up SWTA.... they may be a real option for me!  I go to Rockport regularly and they are on the way.   Not really much more logistically sensible than Maxwell though... I will keep them in mind, thank you.

Do you ever go to the Cleburne breakfast fly ins?

[hammdo]

Laura and JD are great at SWTA. I had them do work for me and they are meticulous… Same with Maxwell’s….

-Don

[1980Mooney]

On 8/21/2023 at 7:26 PM, Austintatious said:

This is not the first thread I have made venting about my maintenance experiences being terrible...   This one has pushed me over the line and I am certain I will be selling both my Mooneys soon as I can...  I will be buying an experimental and doing all maintenance myself and for the yearly safety inspection watching/monitoring whatever A&P I have do the inspection.

Here's the story....

Aircraft due for annual... Schedule the aircraft for said annual at a shop, which I have used before and in fact used on the last annual. 

Well, the end of the week comes and my partner (who lives by the shop) calls me and tells me that the shop swapped the CHT sensors for 1 and 5 back to where they were, but otherwise did no work on the aircraft.     After another test flight, the airspeed is still 20 knots too high and the number 5 cylinder is still running way hotter than it was previously.

So....  I had an aircraft that was operating quite well... and since the FAA insist on ripping apart the fuel injection system and hooking pressurizing equipment up to my Pitot static system my aircraft is now in worse shape than when I took it in.... and I got to pay for the privilege.

I could take it back to the shop But at this point why would I take it back to them if they let the airplane sit a whole week without touching it?   I am not going to name the shop... they are nice people and are clearly overwhelmed by demand. 

 

On 2/22/2024 at 5:20 PM, Austintatious said:

Well, I have to update this nightmare one more time as I think I have ironed out the last of the problems. ....

I swear on the next annual, no one is touching anything that does not 100 percent HAVE to be touched on my airplane.  So sick of mechanics breaking my plane by doing inspections.

 

On 10/9/2024 at 6:19 PM, Austintatious said:

Going through the annual "mess up a good airplane" routine again..... So I thought I would document it here so all yall can chuckle at my apparent bad luck.

Plane went for annual, was doing very well overall... Shop was asked to perform an annual and address a few minor squawks... In fact, before even sending it to them I SPECIFICALLY asked if they would be able to take the time to address the squawks and extra work which consisted of a few instrument lights being out.   I also asked them to THOROUGHLY vet/adjust the fuel flows and to inspect the fuel indicating system as a tank ran out on me with about 8 gallons still showing on the gauge...

Well, the shop failed to address my squawks or inspect the fuel indicating system... they simply didn't do it.  They adjusted the fuel flows and it is now very strange, something is wrong... I don't believe that it is a danger but it just isn't right and on top of that, whatever they did now has the #5 once again running hotter than it ever has after all the effort I went through with GAMI to get it under control.  I have no idea what they could have done to cause this, but I do know that it is a drastic difference from when it went in.  Before I would see maybe 390 degrees when climbing out and would run about 370 in cruise... Now I am seeing 410 degrees (470 is redline)  in climb and about 390 in level flight... Furthermore, I cant lean... that is to say, with the mixture knob all the way in for the climb, when I reduce the throttle and the RPM, the fuel flow is already where it is supposed to be... I used to have to back it down about 3-5 GPH to bring it to what it should be.

And, as a nice little bonus... the cherry on top of the miserable maintenance crap pie I have swallowed all but 1 annual since owning this aircraft... They forgot to re-install an inspection panel.  The other owner accepted it from the shop, didn't catch it and then brought the plane to me... I accepted it and did normal pre-flights.  Flew it a few times and then when I went under the aircraft to tie it down I see the missing panel underneath the wing next to the gear door.  Shop cant find it, says  "it may have been stolen"..... If that happened, it was a polite thief because they put the panel screws back in without the panel there.

I'm close to being able to bail on the certified world and go experimental... real close and I cant wait.  I am tired of people taking my money to mess up my aircraft.

You started this topic a year ago saying that you used the same A&P for Annual in 2023 as you used the prior year in 2022.  After all your venting of frustration last year are you saying in this latest venting that you used the same A&P again this year for Annual?

You also said that your partner-owner lives near that shop.  That sounds like your partner should have been the ideal liaison to get things right.  And you said that the shop is "nice people" which sounds like they are easy to work with.

We like perfection in services but the regs state that the Owner/Operator is primarily responsible for maintaining the aircraft in an airworthy condition.  Your partner should have done a thorough preflight inspection after Annual and reviewed that work was performed per your request ("the shop failed to address my squawks or inspect the fuel indicating system").   Yet he flew off with a wing inspection panel missing.  It sort of sounds like your partner was not very engaged.  I get it that not every pilot/owner is mechanically inclined but he could have at least verified that they addressed your squawk list before picking up the plane. Am I missing something in your description of the situation?

 

Edited October 11, 2024 by 1980Mooney

[Will.iam]

On 10/11/2024 at 9:45 AM, Austintatious said:

Plane is at KFTW... I fly professionally out of KDAL.

I looked up SWTA.... they may be a real option for me!  I go to Rockport regularly and they are on the way.   Not really much more logistically sensible than Maxwell though... I will keep them in mind, thank you.

Do you ever go to the Cleburne breakfast fly ins?

No i haven’t which day does the cleburne breakfast flyin occur?

[Austintatious]

On 10/11/2024 at 11:07 AM, 1980Mooney said:

 

 

You started this topic a year ago saying that you used the same A&P for Annual in 2023 as you used the prior year in 2022.  After all your venting of frustration last year are you saying in this latest venting that you used the same A&P again this year for Annual?

You also said that your partner-owner lives near that shop.  That sounds like your partner should have been the ideal liaison to get things right.  And you said that the shop is "nice people" which sounds like they are easy to work with.

We like perfection in services but the regs state that the Owner/Operator is primarily responsible for maintaining the aircraft in an airworthy condition.  Your partner should have done a thorough preflight inspection after Annual and reviewed that work was performed per your request ("the shop failed to address my squawks or inspect the fuel indicating system").   Yet he flew off with a wing inspection panel missing.  It sort of sounds like your partner was not very engaged.  I get it that not every pilot/owner is mechanically inclined but he could have at least verified that they addressed your squawk list before picking up the plane. Am I missing something in your description of the situation?

 

Yes, I used the same shop... We had not intended to do so, but circumstances pushed us towards doing it there.  The convenience outweighed the other considerations.  This is not a fly by night shop.... I think most of the issues are in fact due to them having high demand.

And Believe me, I agree with you... I was not at all happy with my partner not seeing the missing panel.  It in fact plays part in my frustration with feeling like if I don't have my sleeves rolled up and do it all myself, stuff goes wrong.  It is HIS airplane too FFS.

As far as the squawks go None of my squawks were airworthiness items.  The fuel indicating system is working, its just that I dont trust it given I saw what appeared to be a stuck float or some other anomaly, because it appears to function about as good at you can expect those older systems to 99% Of the time...  I just had that one time and started thinking maybe there is something that could be looked at with scheduled downtime.    The AP has also been temperamental ( it works, just have to finesse it on occasion)and wanted to get a look at it too.   And a few of the instrument panel lights are dim... 

So, after weeks of downtime, sure, my partner could have not accepted the aircraft and us been without it for who knows how long... Obviously the shop didn't care to do any of that work... Why would I keep it with them even longer after they demonstrate this... after they clearly misled me that they would make time.

IDK if that is what you are missing and things make more sense to you now... Obviously I cannot type out all of the details here...  Seems like you are trying to suggest this is really the fault of myself... and I cannot disagree with that.   It is my fault I used the shop again.  It is my fault that I dont go stay 2 weeks in timbucktoo to oversee all the work... It is my fault I have decided to remain in the certified world even though the maintenance situation for me has been untenable.

 

You are completely correct....  And for me, the only solution I see is to get away from the certified world.... And believe me, I am working on it.

 

 

 

 

[Austintatious]

On 10/12/2024 at 6:09 PM, Will.iam said:

No i haven’t which day does the cleburne breakfast flyin occur?

They do them on 5th Saturdays... not sure when the next one is.

https://www.cleburne.net/Calendar.aspx?EID=11106

[Hank]

19 hours ago, Austintatious said:

They do them on 5th Saturdays... not sure when the next one is.

https://www.cleburne.net/Calendar.aspx?EID=11106

Looks like next year . . . .

[1980Mooney]

On 10/14/2024 at 9:28 PM, Austintatious said:

Yes, I used the same shop...  This is not a fly by night shop.... I think most of the issues are in fact due to them having high demand.  ..I was not at all happy with my partner not seeing the missing panel.  It in fact plays part in my frustration with feeling like if I don't have my sleeves rolled up and do it all myself, stuff goes wrong.  It is HIS airplane too FFS.

As far as the squawks go None of my squawks were airworthiness items. ..

So, after weeks of downtime, sure, my partner could have not accepted the aircraftg... Obviously the shop didn't care to do any of that work... Why would I keep it with them even longer after they demonstrate this... after they clearly misled me that they would make time.

 It is my fault that I dont go stay 2 weeks in timbucktoo to oversee all the work...

I think you missed my point.  You have the ideal situation.  You have a partner/owner/pilot located near the shop that did the Annual. You have no need to "stay 2 weeks in timucktoo".  Your partner can put his eyes, hands, ears on the plane, work and the A&P/mechanics as frequently as need be or as often as you wish/direct.  Your partner can visit regularly to check progress on your punch list of squawks (and remind them if they got missed well before the plane was signed off).  You said this shop has a good reputation (not "fly by night").  Sometimes people just need some reminding and nudging especially if they are completely loaded up with work.

It sort of sounds like you are completely "hands on" and your partner is completely "hands off".