Savvy aviation video on Mechanic "crisis"... Maintinence Clubs Idea.

[Austintatious]

Here is the video, worth a watch.

 

 

 

One Idea he floated was a Maintenance club, whereby a group of aircraft owners get together and hire a full time mechanic to maintain the aircraft.  I think it is a great idea.  I may try to spearhead such a club in my area.

If for example, I could get 20 aircraft to pool together at say 500 per month each,  That would be a budget of 120k per year to hire a full time A&P AI.

20 aircraft is certainly a lot, but for owners that fly less than 100 hours per year I suspect it is doable by a single mechanic. You may have 1 or two broken planes a week.  Of course there would be 1-2 annuals to complete per month as well.  

If such a thing was pursued, It would be very beneficial for all if all the aircraft were same make at least.

I do not know what Mechanics are currently making.  I know what shop rates are but I don't think that all goes to the mechanic.  Maybe 120k a year is too little.  It would almost certainly have to be 1099 pay, which might be good given the mechanic could then write off a whole slew of things including mileage driven.

I am curious to explore this, so Please chime in with thoughts and knowledge.

[Neshi]

this sounds good but you will need to increase the pay the the mechanic. Airlines are offering about the same pay with benefits health and travel vacation etc. 

[Utah20Gflyer]

I think you would likely need a part time admin person to handle accounting and general paperwork.  
 

How many airplanes in the club would depend to some degree on how well the planes are maintained.  A person who buys a new to them aircraft which hasn’t been maintained well is going to tax the resources of the group if they are let in. Success and affordability will depend on who is allowed into the group.   A qualification like 2 or 3 years of good maintenance before entering the group may be warranted.  
 

The type of airplane is going to matter as well.  A Cessna 421 is going to suck up a lot more resources than a Cessna 150.   Variable pricing may be in order.  
 

What about upgrades versus repairs?   
 

Lots of details have to be worked out.

[McMooney]

omg, make this thing even more expensive

[GeeBee]

Just as a reference. I have a friend and his grandson just signed on with Delta. He had a fresh A&P from a 4 year school with an avionics cert. He is first year pay is 105K plus a 15K signing bonus he keeps after 2 years.Add medical, vacation, retirement and pass privileges. Not to mention as a W2 employee he pays less SS because the employer picks up more. When you add it all up as a 1099 employee you would need to make about 190K a year to match what Delta is giving him now. To work as an A&P in GA, you have to want to do it.

[Austintatious]

16 hours ago, McMooney said:

omg, make this thing even more expensive

Nothing is more expensive per hour than an airplane you cannot operate because you cannot find maintenance to keep it flying.

[McMooney]

4 hours ago, Austintatious said:

Nothing is more expensive per hour than an airplane you cannot operate because you cannot find maintenance to keep it flying.

I do agree, but as i sit here 30amu in for this year, i have to start wondering how much more i can handle before i'm out.  yes, yes, first world problems.

it seem we're doing everything we can to make this hobby more expensive.  I like Mb's option of owners doing more maintenance, expand owner maintenance so we reduce the load on ap/ias.

ex.  I lost an oil cooler this year which I sent out for overhaul, I ordered the temp replacement, hell I even helped find the oil leak but now i need to pay someone to remove 4 bolts and 2 oil lines ? 

technically, i guess i can legally replace the oil lines myself.

so have to pay a guy to remove 4 bolts ?  expand it so i can do this simple job.

To be clear, just using this as an example, totally not knocking my superhero mx who sorted this issue and put up with me.

Edited June 18, 2023 by McMooney

[alextstone]

I saw the shortage of quality, timely maintenance coming in our area about three years ago.  I would rather not go into detail on an online forum but let's just say the overall quality and availability of maintenance was obviously declining and that shortage had become a safety issue.

Because I have a personal interest in earning my A&P and I also need access to reliable maintenance (my wife and I are both pilots and we own two aircraft, a Mooney Bravo and a Cherokee 180), I made an agreement to purchase the local maintenance shop.  My other motives for doing so were to stabilize the maintenance for my fellow pilot /owners on the field and in the area and to have an outlet for my commitment to lifelong learning upon retirement (coming in the next 5-10 years)   Here's a photo of my Bravo in the shop undergoing a little TLC:

 

I have one full time mechanic and three part time mechanics currently working there.  Here are some details that one might find helpful if one were to consider a similar path.  I have often thought of taking this project "semi-private" in the form of a club but its working so well now that I'm not sure I want to change anything.

Costs and Liability:

1.  Minimum cost for liability coverage is 10k per year.  This will provide adequate coverage for aircraft in your care (up to a point - not adequate for turboprops and jets however)  Here is a copy of the quote: 23-24 WBA Renewal Quote.pdf

2.  Good Labor is HARD TO FIND.  Be prepared to get creative with time off, work hours, whatever it takes to entice the person to consider accepting.  The labor cost should equate to about 30-35% of the hourly labor rate.  

3.  The endeavor should exist in a separate LLC.

Time Investment:

I devote about 5-10 hours a week managing this business.  I often choose to spend more of my time than that functioning as an apprentice mechanic out of personal interest.

Personal Maintenance Cost Savings:

Labor for my personal aircraft costs me my time only if I do the work and 1/2 of the normal hourly rate if one of the other mechanics gets involved.  Parts are about 20% less than you would normally pay through a shop.

Is the business profitable?  Surprisingly, yes, albeit with tight margins.  It takes vigilance and I would not want to earn a living this way but it certainly sustains itself.  

The goals I set out to address have been met.  My aircraft are maintained safely.  I have (almost) instant access to well vetted maintenance.  I am learning more than I ever imagined.  My flying friends also enjoy stable, quality maintenance.  The shop sustains itself financially.  This course of action is a big commitment.  If you are reading this and you want more in-depth details (cost of acquisition, etc) feel free to DM me.

 

Alex

 

 

 

 

 

[Austintatious]

57 minutes ago, McMooney said:

I do agree, but as i sit here 30amu in for this year, i have to start wondering how much more i can handle before i'm out.  yes, yes, first world problems.

it seem we're doing everything we can to make this hobby more expensive.  I like Mb's option of owners doing more maintenance, expand owner maintenance so we reduce the load on ap/ias.

ex.  I lost an oil cooler which I sent it out for overhaul,  I ordered the temp replacement, hell I even helped find the oil leak but now i need to pay someone to remove 4 bolts and 2 oil lines ? 

technically, i guess i can legally replace the oil lines myself.

so have to pay a guy to remove 4 bolts ?  expand it so i can do this simple job.

To be clear, just using this as an example, totally not knocking my superhero mx who sorted this issue and put up with me.

 

Look, I agree with you.  I think these older aircraft should be treated just like experimental... What sense does it make that someone can be maintaining their own Lancair 4p that does 280 knots carrying more fuel than me, with only a safety inspection by an A&P each year and no insurance.... yet I cant touch so much simple stuff on my 40 year old Mooney?  It makes no sense and needs to change.

That being said, until it does, my biggest problem is getting maintenance at a reasonable cost and time frame by someone that knows what they are doing, specifically on a mooney.  For annuals I have to fly the aircraft an hour away from home and back.  That adds significant cost, time and inconvenience.   I do my own oil changes because the shop at home base wants 550.00 to do one.  I do it for $150.00 with camguard and it takes me about 30 min of  actual labor. 

The only silver lining is that My aircraft does not break that often.  I am 2 months away from being due for annual and this vacuum pump issue is the only maintenance I have needed. 

The annual cost me about 3k minimum... So if I could spend 6k throughout the year for a maintenance club, that is only about 3k more per year to have someone available year round who knows what they are doing and is available to fix stuff, I think it would be a pretty good deal.

 

 

[1980Mooney]

24 minutes ago, Austintatious said:

......The annual cost me about 3k minimum... So if I could spend 6k throughout the year for a maintenance club, that is only about 3k more per year to have someone available year round who knows what they are doing and is available to fix stuff, I think it would be a pretty good deal.

• As @M20Doc said add cost for shop, tools, insurance, accounting and tax - so add another 35% for Overhead
• Don't forget this is only for Labor
• So probably expect to pay $8K per year for Labor and add parts, oil and other supplies on top.
• And that is to "have someone THAT MIGHT BE AVAILABLE"
  • You are assuming that the mechanic isn't working on someone else's maintenace hog or doing an overhaul, etc.

This sounds a bit like socialized medicine in the UK.  

[Schllc]

Socialized?

Quite the opposite  it would be the market reacting to the forces at play. 
Ironically, it’s what’s happening to medicine with concierge doctors. 
Insurance pegged the stupid meter even before Obamacare. 
Government intervention, while altruistic in intent, has had the opposite affect. 
The FAA’s onerous, anachronistic and bloated rule book, never stops to reevaluate. They just pile one stupid rule on top of others.   
Much like most “government solutions”, there is no after action review regarding efficacy and no accountability. 
I think this is a feasible idea, but it would be difficult to make it work on a small scale. 

[1980Mooney]

42 minutes ago, Schllc said:

Socialized?

Quite the opposite  it would be the market reacting to the forces at play. 
Ironically, it’s what’s happening to medicine with concierge doctors. 
Insurance pegged the stupid meter even before Obamacare. 
Government intervention, while altruistic in intent, has had the opposite affect. 
The FAA’s onerous, anachronistic and bloated rule book, never stops to reevaluate. They just pile one stupid rule on top of others.   
Much like most “government solutions”, there is no after action review regarding efficacy and no accountability. 
I think this is a feasible idea, but it would be difficult to make it work on a small scale. 

If you listen to the video, he talks about "his shop" which charges "a fixed amount for an unknown and highly variable amount of work".  He talks about taking a bath on about 500 planes per year that cost way more to repair than the flat rate.  He makes it clear that the other 4,500 planes per year are paying a fee that subsidizes the 500 maintenance hogs.  He said it is just like insurance.

He uses the word "concierge" once but his model is not concierge.  Busch and the OP are not talking about paying a "retainer fee" and then paying "time and materials' on top of it.  

Busch's model is classic socialized healthcare.  When I am expecting a disastrous Annual, I want to join his shop and pay the fixed fee.  Then I can get everyone else to pay for most of my repairs.

Brilliant.

Are you suggesting that the budget propose by  @Austintatious  was just to pay a "retainer" for a "concierge" model, and that work would be time and materials on top of it?  I think most were thinking that the $6K payment was not a retainer, but a $6K payment for a full year of maintenance.

Edited June 18, 2023 by 1980Mooney

[Schllc]

9 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

Are you suggesting that the budget propose by  @Austintatious  was just to pay a "retainer" for a "concierge" model, and that work would be time and materials on top of it?  I think most were thinking that the $6K payment was not a retainer, but a $6K payment for a full year of maintenance.

 My reference was not to Busch’s video, but to the other suggestion of a group employing a mechanic. I don’t think this would work with 20 owners, it would have to be larger with more service techs to be effective and convenient. 
Good point about the maintenance hogs.  This should be easy to ameliorate with a base annual for the first time by the organization prior to enrolling that isn’t included in the membership. 
The goal is to have good maintenance available, and expect to pay a premium. 

[EricJ]

4 hours ago, M20Doc said:

The club is going to need a shop to work in, or a fully stocked and equipped van to travel to the club members hangars.   Insurance to cover the maintainer and the van, etc etc.  might be easier for the club to buy an existing maintenance operation.

They'd also have to sort out policy for prioritizing whose airplane gets worked on when the queue is full, and how to distribute costs when some people get far more service than others.

It seems like a recipe for disagreements and disappointment to me.

I don't think this is Mike's best idea.

[hubcap]

One challenge to making this work is finding 20 planes in the same relative condition. I have no interest joining a collective who barely keep their planes airworthy. I keep my plane in tip top shape and it requires little during the year other than oil changes. A few hangar queens would spoil this arrangement very quickly.

[Schllc]

Being a member with access to the shop.  In other words, paying a fee to be guaranteed the ability to schedule work at fixed rates with minimal interruptions….

I have a side business for my clients where they pay me an annual fee, and they are on the top of the list for service in the event of a disaster. They do not receive free service for this fee, they merely are guaranteed I will have capacity to service them at my normal rate, should the need arise. 
It has worked very well for both sides. 

I would gladly pay a shop a monthly or annual fee to guarantee time and turn around when the need arises, at fixed rates. 
The reality is if you take a look at ANY skilled trade today, you will be really hard pressed to find anyone competent under the age of 50.
Apparently there have been a few generations that have been led to believe they can get rich staring at phones. 
They will figure it out when all of those 50+ year olds age out and there is no one to fix their toilet, but in the meantime, it’s going to be hard finding people who are competent, and can work with their hands. 
This will create all sorts of innovative arrangements and it would be in a niche like aviations best interest to figure that out sooner than later. 

[alextstone]

Being a member with access to the shop.  In other words, paying a fee to be guaranteed the ability to schedule work at fixed rates with minimal interruptions….
I have a side business for my clients where they pay me an annual fee, and they are on the top of the list for service in the event of a disaster. They do not receive free service for this fee, they merely are guaranteed I will have capacity to service them at my normal rate, should the need arise. 
It has worked very well for both sides. 

I would gladly pay a shop a monthly or annual fee to guarantee time and turn around when the need arises, at fixed rates. 
The reality is if you take a look at ANY skilled trade today, you will be really hard pressed to find anyone competent under the age of 50.
Apparently there have been a few generations that have been led to believe they can get rich staring at phones. 
They will figure it out when all of those 50+ year olds age out and there is no one to fix their toilet, but in the meantime, it’s going to be hard finding people who are competent, and can work with their hands. 
This will create all sorts of innovative arrangements, and it would be in a a niche like aviation, to figure that out sooner than later. 

^^^This!^^^. A service contract, not a club.

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

[Schllc]

3 minutes ago, alextstone said:

^^^This!^^^. A service contract, not a club.

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk
 

Yes, exactly. This means when non club members are in for service and a member rolls in, they are pushed to the back. 
If you don’t like it, you can enter the service contract or go elsewhere. 
The fee would be large enough for the shop to obtain stability with the service contract clients.   
it could likely work with reciprocals if multiple locations worked together. 
Arranging by make or model would be a natural progression as well. Only makes sense to specialize to streamline the process and turn things around quicker and cheaper.   

[A64Pilot]

Only way I can see something like this working is you pay X amount of money per year and for this you get X number of shop hours, any above that are at some pre-arranged rate. You pay for all consumables and parts. Maintenance is scheduled of course you get an appt. for your Annual. Excepting of course for things that break, AKA unscheduled maintenance. 

If it’s 20 Airplanes, then one Mechanic it’s going to be tough to do 20 Annuals per year to say nothing of un-scheduled Maintenance

I can see how an IA would sign up, guaranteed income without the headache of all the bills and I assume reduced personal liability, but yeah your going to need an office manager or whatever that keeps books, does the scheduling, pays bills, chases parts etc so your IA is turning wrenches, cause if he’s not then his time isn’t being used wisely.

Most IA’s I know wouldn’t consider working for any Airline, because they live in a small town and have lived there for a long time, Airlines are in large Metropolises like Atlanta, Orlando etc. Great for a kid, but an older IA, not so much.

I don’t honestly see it working, you think it’s going to be simple but I think it will soon grow arms and legs. But then I don’t see how three or four people share an airplane, yet apparently many do.

Edited June 18, 2023 by A64Pilot

[atpdave]

I think having airworthiness inspections valid for 24 months might be a good solution.

[hais]

14 minutes ago, atpdave said:

I think having airworthiness inspections valid for 24 months might be a good solution.

Novel idea for the demand side of the problem...

I suppose the data is available to investigate what items might go on a longer schedule. Or maybe instrumenting the airplane might help with real-time on-condition maintenance of some items. 

[EricJ]

It sounds like it just boils down to paying more for priority.   I suspect that already works with many if not most shops, but most aren't willing to pay the premium.

[ilovecornfields]

23 minutes ago, EricJ said:

It sounds like it just boils down to paying more for priority.   I suspect that already works with many if not most shops, but most aren't willing to pay the premium.

@Jerry 5TJ has mentioned that he keeps a mechanic on retainer which seems to work well for both of them. Seems like that model might get more popular.

[McMooney]

1 hour ago, atpdave said:

I think having airworthiness inspections valid for 24 months might be a good solution.

Totally agree, every year right as i get birdy working perfect, she get's taken apart for an annual

[Jerry 5TJ]

18 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

@Jerry 5TJ has mentioned that he keeps a mechanic on retainer which seems to work well for both of them. Seems like that model might get more popular.

Time for Revision 2 — after a good 5 year run, that mechanic now has got a job flying with NetJets.  I’m looking for a new candidate.