dpmatsalla Posted February 29, 2012 Report Posted February 29, 2012 Hi everybody, Well, I just sold my baby (a M20J), and now I need to buy a FIKI Mooney that will let me fly to see my family on weekends, even during Canadian winters. I'm not too picky about avionics, so long as it will let me fly IFR (i.e. WAAS) approaches. I'm not too picky about the paint or the interior either (within reason). A turbo would be nice, but not essential. Of course, I'd prefer low engine times, but I could be convinced to do an overhaul, so long as I can fit it all in within my budget... $180k. Any other OH work (i.e. prop, turbo, etc) would also have to fit into this budget. So, I've been looking around, and there's not a huge number out there, so I thought I'd try out Mooneyspace. So, does anybody know of any M20Ks, M20Ms or M20Rs that are for sale that would fit my price-range? Please help out a fellow Mooney-lover!! Thanks! Devon (formerly C-FZVQ)
Ned Gravel Posted February 29, 2012 Report Posted February 29, 2012 Quote: dpmatsalla Hi everybody, Well, I just sold my baby (a M20J), and now I need to buy a FIKI Mooney that will let me fly to see my family on weekends, even during Canadian winters. I'm not too picky about avionics, so long as it will let me fly IFR (i.e. WAAS) approaches. I'm not too picky about the paint or the interior either (within reason). A turbo would be nice, but not essential. Of course, I'd prefer low engine times, but I could be convinced to do an overhaul, so long as I can fit it all in within my budget... $180k. Any other OH work (i.e. prop, turbo, etc) would also have to fit into this budget. So, I've been looking around, and there's not a huge number out there, so I thought I'd try out Mooneyspace. So, does anybody know of any M20Ks, M20Ms or M20Rs that are for sale that would fit my price-range? Please help out a fellow Mooney-lover!! Thanks! Devon (formerly C-FZVQ)
Jerry 5TJ Posted February 29, 2012 Report Posted February 29, 2012 Last year I used the AOPA partnership program to find an aviation partner. We bought a FIKI plane together. The AOPA site is fairly active; you might give it a try.
KSMooniac Posted February 29, 2012 Report Posted February 29, 2012 Welcome, and good luck finding a quality FIKI Mooney within that budget. You might get lucky with a very early M20M or an M20K 252 or perhaps an Encore. I can't say I've seen any quality M20R without a run-out engine for that price, even without FIKI. Jimmy Garrison/AAA had a 252 Rocket with TKS listed recently for $189k IIRC, but I can't remember if it was FIKI or not. I seem to remember a thread here that said there was no way to get the FIKI status on a Rocket, even if the base plane had it prior to the conversion. Worth a check in any case.
N513ZM Posted February 29, 2012 Report Posted February 29, 2012 Quote: dpmatsalla Hi everybody, <snip> I need to buy a FIKI Mooney that will let me fly to see my family on weekends, even during Canadian winters. I'm not too picky about avionics, so long as it will let me fly IFR (i.e. WAAS) approaches. I'm not too picky about the paint or the interior either (within reason). A turbo would be nice, but not essential. Of course, I'd prefer low engine times, but I could be convinced to do an overhaul, so long as I can fit it all in within my budget... $180k. Any other OH work (i.e. prop, turbo, etc) would also have to fit into this budget. So, I've been looking around, and there's not a huge number out there, so I thought I'd try out Mooneyspace. So, does anybody know of any M20Ks, M20Ms or M20Rs that are for sale that would fit my price-range? Please help out a fellow Mooney-lover!! Thanks! Devon (formerly C-FZVQ)
dpmatsalla Posted February 29, 2012 Author Report Posted February 29, 2012 Thanks for the hints, all. Agreed that I'll most likely be looking at an early Bravo for my pricerange - and that suits me great. I will take a look at AOPA, thanks Jerry! And as much as I'd love to, Mike, your plane will never be within the realm of the possible - not so long as I'm living off a soldier's salary... In the meanwhile, spread the word! I am plane-less and it feels TERRIBLE....
AndyFromCB Posted February 29, 2012 Report Posted February 29, 2012 Actually, for 180k quite a lot of fine, mid time engine Fiki bravos to be had. They are all selling for about 15 of vRef. BTW, you made a comment that turbo would be nice but not necessary. FIKi without turbo is kind of pointless. The point is to use Fiki to get out of dodge and the turbo makes all the difference there. Even with TKS you want to be to climb at a fast speed and low deck angle. There was a bravo on controller with an asking price of 180, I made an offer on it but it fell thru, it ended up selling for 155. A lot of the Fiki bravos have been on the market for a year or so, make a decent offer and you can end up with one of the most capable airplanes for a lot less than 180. As to Fiki vs inadvertent, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Same tks panels. Andy
Jerry 5TJ Posted February 29, 2012 Report Posted February 29, 2012 The first piece of "de-ice" gear I would elect to get in a Mooney is -- a turbocharger. Someone said it -- with the turbo you often have an option to climb up past much of the ice. There's not much ice above FL220, as a general rule. Ice is where you find it. I prefer to find it in a cold drink.
Parker_Woodruff Posted February 29, 2012 Report Posted February 29, 2012 Rockets cannot be made FIKI (techicality on certifying the airframe, not the de ice system for FIKI). I saw a FIKI 252 that looked good recently...I believe on Controller.
jwilkins Posted March 1, 2012 Report Posted March 1, 2012 You might want to give Dave Mc Gee a call. Last I heard All American had 2 or 3 TKS planes in that general price range (+ or - ) Jim
dpmatsalla Posted March 1, 2012 Author Report Posted March 1, 2012 Agree with all comments about having a turbocharger - that is certainly my preference. However I would not want to discount any FIKI IO-550s that I know are out there. In Canadian winters, there is ice at all altitudes... However, with regards to FIKI vs inadvertant, I really do need FIKI. I could never bring myself to fly a non-FIKI into known icing, no matter how good my "chances" were. I do have my eye on a Bravo at All American, but it's listed at $189k, and really high engine times. The OH pushes this one out of my price range. I'm still hopeful that a Mooneyspacer may see this and sell me his plane! Thanks for you help everyone!
AndyFromCB Posted March 1, 2012 Report Posted March 1, 2012 Quote: dpmatsalla However, with regards to FIKI vs inadvertant, I really do need FIKI. I could never bring myself to fly a non-FIKI into known icing, no matter how good my "chances" were.
KSMooniac Posted March 1, 2012 Report Posted March 1, 2012 Here is a "cheap" one at AAA with TKS, but it is a runout and has an original panel: http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20M-BRAVO/1994-MOONEY-M20M-BRAVO/1225531.htm? You might call CAV Aerospace and/or Mooney and see what it would take to convert one like this to FIKI status. Hopefully it can be done, but another poster recently reported that the entire system would need to be R&R'd for a K Mooney. 1
AndyFromCB Posted March 1, 2012 Report Posted March 1, 2012 The entire system has to be redone for a cost of about 48K for FIKI. I called, I cried, I laughed. Then I tracked down the source of pump motors...I also measured the panels on FIKI and non-FIKI. Not one square inch more coverage unlike the Cirrus. Bo is the same a Mooney. No difference between FIKI and non-FIKI.
dpmatsalla Posted March 1, 2012 Author Report Posted March 1, 2012 Very interesting comments, Andy. I don't have any experience with TKS, so I'm really happy to benefit from yours! My only understanding about all this is based on discussions with my AME when I asked him if we could "FIKI-ize" a plane equipped only with inadvertant TKS. He consulted TKS on the issue, and he told me that it involved a lot more than adding a second pump or a heated stall-warning. It seems that the TKS panels themselves are in some way different, and I'd be looking at a $40k fee to do an upgrade. I'm sorry I don't have the specs, but I do trust my AME, who has been an authorized Mooney mechanic for a long time. I acknowledge that there are limits to what you can fly in, whether you have no de-icing, inadvertant, FIKI or a hot-wing. What scares me a bit is that I won't really know what the limits of the aircraft are until I'm actually doing an approach in them. So, chances are, I will be overly cautious until I figure out how it all works. But I do hope, with FIKI, that at least I'll be able to fly on those days when there's just a bit of light known icing from 2000-4000 ft with sunny skies above - which is pretty much 50% of the days of the winter around here. While I'm intrigued to hear that you say there is essentially no difference between inadvertant and FIKI, I'm still going to have to draw the line at FIKI, just because I know that's the answer my insurance company would like to hear. Perhaps when I have more experience, like you, then I'll be more flexible in my position on this. However, when I do finally get my plane, I'll be coming to get your comments about how I should and should not be using my TKS. Your insights are priceless! Thanks for the ad, Scott, but I'll have to hold out for FIKI unfortunately.
aviatoreb Posted March 1, 2012 Report Posted March 1, 2012 Quote: dpmatsalla ... which is pretty much 50% of the days of the winter around here.
FoxMike Posted March 1, 2012 Report Posted March 1, 2012 Devon, I have owned a Bravo for 8 years. It came from the factory with TKS. I fly around the Rockies and seldom need the TKS but when I do the system is really worth its weight in gold. My last two airplanes were deiced (boots) and they worked OK but the TKS works better. Either system need continual inspection and attention to small maintenance items so you need to budget a 1/2K or so a year. However, when you get into a serious icing situation you need to be confident that the system will work right. Having a turbo in my neck of the woods is helpful most of the time but in icing conditions at 17K it is a necessity. I have found turbos to be a great aid to all weather flying. If you use you airplane for serious weather flying I would get one with a turbo. I do not have any idea what your level of experience is but I know it takes a well experienced (seasoned) pilot to operate a FIKI ariplane safely. Good luck in your search.
AndyFromCB Posted March 1, 2012 Report Posted March 1, 2012 Devon, I understand, but even looking at the schematics in the manual, I do not see much of a difference, but you're correct, FIKI is FIKI. Quite frankly, my experience is limited, I've only had the Bravo this winter, about 35 hours since I bought but I've been flying almost daily, last week again IFR without an autopilot. Quite frankly, I think the TKS system when properly primed on the ground and then once again before approach will handle more ice than this pilot wants to deal with. The conditions you are describing, a 2000 foot layer are nothing for the TKS. I mean, you can step climb them in an Arrow (no, I've never done it, I swear), it's the frontal systems is where TKS and turbo shine. So far, the most I've dealt with was a 15 minutes climb to 14,000 from 1,000 at 120knots that was solid ice most of the way with a bit of break in the middle and I was just amazed how clean the airframe stayed on the high setting. I only had to hit the windshield pump twice for about 15 seconds each. I popped up on top fairly clean but still, I feel I pushed my take off a bit too close to a warm front passage.Should have waited another hour or two for the tops to drop down. If you get a Bravo, you will not regret it. I'm sure this one could be had for closer to 165K than the asking price. It's been on the market since early 2011. http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20M-BRAVO/1991-MOONEY-M20M-BRAVO/1208027.htm Andy
AndyFromCB Posted March 1, 2012 Report Posted March 1, 2012 Also, I was going to switch both taxi and landing lights to LED. My mechanic told me to only change the landing lights. Now I know why ;-). It's kind of fun to get on top with 2 inches of ice the landing lights, turn on the taxi lights for a few minutes and kick the rudders side to side and see the ice slide off. Andy
dpmatsalla Posted March 2, 2012 Author Report Posted March 2, 2012 Andy, Yeah, that bravo is definitely an awesome plane if I can get the owner to come down a bit. Actually, I have already thrown him an offer, but he doesn't seem too enthusiastic about selling, so we'll have to see how that goes. I have my fingers crossed! Cheers!
N513ZM Posted March 2, 2012 Report Posted March 2, 2012 As someone who has flown a FIKI Ovation2 through some of the worst icing real estate in the country (OH, PA, NY, CT in the lee of the Great Lakes) for 5+ years I feel qualified to comment on some of the previous comments on this thread. Turbocharging - It's great, a nice to have, probably a necessity in the mountains but its not a substitute for TKS. I wouldn't use TC to climb thru icing conditions w/o TKS and I haven't needed TC to escape icing conditions with TKS. And I have flown a LOT of ice. The combo of TC AND FIKI is awesome but FIKI and an IO550 works just fine. You just have to use a bit more smarts and finesse - you can't just bull your way higher if you are already at FL170. End of story. FIKI vs Inadvertent - with FIKI you get more than just a 2nd TKS pump. 2nd Alternator, heated stall vane, 2nd pump, windshield spray bar, ice light and legal cover for possible foolish decisions that you live thru. Priceless. FIKI TKS on a Mooney works great as long as there is fluid in the tank and the panels are weeping said fluid. I have many hours flying my 560nm x/c commute in the flight levels during the winter. It's an incredible tool and one that needs to be approached with a measure of humility and caution. I have had numerous occasions where I encountered icing that accreted quicker than the TKS could handle - I lived. I have also had numerous occasions where I judged it perfectly ok to motor on in conditions where the TKS was easily handling light rime. It's a constant judgement call game. YMMV. At the end of the day, however, I live by this prayer: "thy sky is so vast and my plane is so small" - a bit of humility is needed when trying to outsmart Mother Nature.. Good luck on your search, Devon. I'm sure you'll come across a plane that fits your profile.
aviatoreb Posted March 2, 2012 Report Posted March 2, 2012 Quote: N513ZM FIKI vs Inadvertent - with FIKI you get more than just a 2nd TKS pump. 2nd Alternator, heated stall vane, 2nd pump, windshield spray bar, ice light and legal cover for possible foolish decisions that you live thru. Priceless.
AndyFromCB Posted March 2, 2012 Report Posted March 2, 2012 Mike, I'm still learning so much about IFR flying. Can you describe in a bit more detail that TKS was being overwhelmed? Weather, time of the year, cruise/climb/descent? How does the airplane behave? Do you use any flaps on landing even with TKS keeping up? Andy P.S. All Bravos come with a dual alternator. The only thing you're missing with FIKI is second set of pumps on a Bravo. My is non-FIKI and has the heated stall vane.
N513ZM Posted March 2, 2012 Report Posted March 2, 2012 Quote: astelmaszek Mike, I'm still learning so much about IFR flying. Can you describe in a bit more detail that TKS was being overwhelmed? Weather, time of the year, cruise/climb/descent? How does the airplane behave? Do you use any flaps on landing even with TKS keeping up? Andy P.S. All Bravos come with a dual alternator. The only thing you're missing with FIKI is second set of pumps on a Bravo. My is non-FIKI and has the heated stall vane.
dpmatsalla Posted March 3, 2012 Author Report Posted March 3, 2012 Keep it coming, boys, I am soaking this up like a sponge! Mike, I really appreciate all your experience with TKS and TC. Like Andy, I am really interested in hearing all those answers that were lost, like about landing with FIKI on and on the limitations of the system. Thanks so much for taking the time (twice). BTW, another really cool thing about importing a plane into Canada is that I get to rename it! So now I'm trying to think through various four-letter combinations that start with F or G... Of course, the wife has the veto, so I'm not allowed any dirty ones unfortunately... Devon
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