No gascolator on my 1992 201 MSE, is that normal?

[Fly Boomer]

4 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Whenever I've had that happen, I had the mag installed 180 degrees off. I wish I could say I've never done that, but I can't...

Curious if you or anyone else reading this topic uses one of the mag lock tools from ATS or elsewhere:

http://aircraft-tool.com/shop/dbpics/medium/ml20.jpg

[Aerospace]

2 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

There’s 3 hoses on the left side, check they’re all clear, if not flooding will be common. If it does flood, full throttle, mixture lean, and when it starts be ready to adjust as engine roars to life.

Left side of what? What kind of hoses?

[N201MKTurbo]

6 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

Curious if you or anyone else reading this topic uses one of the mag lock tools from ATS or elsewhere:

http://aircraft-tool.com/shop/dbpics/medium/ml20.jpg

I have two different mag lock tools. I don't use them any more. They say they are bad for the gears and can cause mag failures.

[Fly Boomer]

1 minute ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I have two different mag lock tools. I don't use them any more. They say they are bad for the gears and can cause mag failures.

Oh, good!  One less tool.  Although, an affordable one.

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

Curious if you or anyone else reading this topic uses one of the mag lock tools from ATS or elsewhere:

http://aircraft-tool.com/shop/dbpics/medium/ml20.jpg

Absolutely NOT!  They easily break mag internal gear  teeth 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Aerospace said:

Well the last two weeks have been a pain. The installation and overhaul work listed above is all complete, but the mechanic can't get the engine to start. After *we* flooded it and ran the battery dead, he has removed and double checked the magneto to engine timing, bench checked the mags, tested the condensers, confirmed that there is spark and checked the P-leads. He says it is acting like there is just no spark or that it's flooded. I'm thinking he may have missed something or gotten something wrong.

To review what work has been done to the A3B6D, started this with a running engine that had a dying mechanical pump:

• Removed magneto to get access to replace engine driven fuel pump
• Replaced pump and one old hose
• Rebuilt gascolator (made a hole in the belly panel)
• Cleaned finger screen and replaced O-rings
• Re-installed and timed dual-magnetos
• Tried to start but no luck, not even a little
• Flooded engine
• Pulled mag and bench tested
• Checked leads and condensers
• Charged battery
• Re-installed mag
• Confirmed spark exists at plug
• Tried to start, no luck

What do you folks think? Are these things that tricky?

*edited to not be unfairly harsh on mechanic about flooding and battery

Installed and timed to the wrong cylinder.  There are two small lines cast into the magneto case, these should be on the top side of the mag and match the two lines cast in the wire harness cap.

[ArtVandelay]

Left side of what? What kind of hoses?

[N201MKTurbo]

31 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Installed and timed to the wrong cylinder.  There are two small lines cast into the magneto case, these should be on the top side of the mag and match the two lines cast in the wire harness cap.

I used to think that was important, but it actually doesn't make a difference. The dual mag will work either way. The only thing it does is swap the physical mags. The only thing that matters is that the distributor is pointing at the correct wire when you put it on. Trace the spark plug wires back to the cap on both sides. You will find if you flip the cap or the mag the wires still go to the right places. If you flip the cap, you will just swap tops for bottoms.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I used to think that was important, but it actually doesn't make a difference. The dual mag will work either way. The only thing it does is swap the physical mags. The only thing that matters is that the distributor is pointing at the correct wire when you put it on. Trace the spark plug wires back to the cap on both sides. You will find if you flip the cap or the mag the wires still go to the right places. If you flip the cap, you will just swap tops for bottoms.

All of that is true, but it never hurts to help others do it correctly.  

[N201MKTurbo]

3 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

All of that is true, but it never hurts to help others do it correctly.  

On mine all the stickers go down.

[Pinecone]

7 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Whenever I've had that happen, I had the mag installed 180 degrees off. I wish I could say I've never done that, but I can't...

Back in college a buddy rebuilt the engine in his car.  It would not start.  My first reaction was distributor 180 out.  Spun it around, same thing.

It would pop, so of fire.  We spent all afternoon trying to figure it.  Finally went back to putting it TDC on compression and checking.  He managed to get it in 90 degrees out.  So swapping it 180 degrees, it was still 90 out.

 

[EricJ]

7 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

Curious if you or anyone else reading this topic uses one of the mag lock tools from ATS or elsewhere:

http://aircraft-tool.com/shop/dbpics/medium/ml20.jpg

As mentioned, don't use the hard ones.   Since they're harder than the gear, if something moves it'll damage or crack the gear rather than the tool, which you may not know until the magneto is in service.

This tool does the same thing but it's softer than the gear and a little flexible, but not so much that it won't hold the gear in place.    This is what I use and it works pretty well and won't damage the gear.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/FBsafetymag.php

 

[Guest]

I made one out of a short piece of clear vinyl tube.  I fashioned a pair of teeth like the ones in Eric’s example above.  Being hollow it allows you to see through it to be sure the gear hasn’t turned.

[Fly Boomer]

7 hours ago, EricJ said:

As mentioned, don't use the hard ones.   Since they're harder than the gear, if something moves it'll damage or crack the gear rather than the tool, which you may not know until the magneto is in service.

This tool does the same thing but it's softer than the gear and a little flexible, but not so much that it won't hold the gear in place.    This is what I use and it works pretty well and won't damage the gear.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/FBsafetymag.php

 

Thanks for the tip.  I see some complaints on Spruce that it's so soft it won't hold the gear, but that's way better than taking a chance on damaging the gear.  Or worse, cracking it and inducing a failure that happens at an inopportune time.  For thirteen bucks, it's worth a try.

[Fly Boomer]

2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I made one out of a short piece of clear vinyl tube.  I fashioned a pair of teeth like the ones in Eric’s example above.  Being hollow it allows you to see through it to be sure the gear hasn’t turned.

Clever (as usual).  So many of the things you point out make sense after you show how it is done -- the difference is, you know all these things and I don't.

Many thanks.

[Guest]

Here's the tool I made.

[Ragsf15e]

17 hours ago, Aerospace said:

Left side of what? What kind of hoses?

There’s a pretty specific way to start a flooded engine.  Maybe you still have another issue, but if it’s really flooded, it won’t start normally.  As Art said, no prime, full throttle, mixture lean.  Crank. Slowly pull throttle out until it fires.  Then idle throttle, mixture in (quickly).

[EricJ]

3 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

Thanks for the tip.  I see some complaints on Spruce that it's so soft it won't hold the gear, but that's way better than taking a chance on damaging the gear.  Or worse, cracking it and inducing a failure that happens at an inopportune time.  For thirteen bucks, it's worth a try.

If someone bumps the prop you want this thing to slip rather than taking teeth off the gear.    That's a good feature. 

It just needs to hold the gear steady while you install the mag.   It does that well in my experience.

@M20Doc's hose-thing is a neat idea, too, and may save $13. 

 

[carusoam]

Interesting…

That’s a fine fettle of fish you came across there Aerospace!

 

1) All airplanes get a fuel drain at their lowest point in the system….  Our 65 and later planes have the gascolator at the lowest point…  M20Bs have a glass bowl up by the firewall…

2) We have one drain… that we pull twice.

3) Flip the fuel selector between pulls…

4) Do this early in the Pre-flight… to verify the fuel doesn’t continue to keep dripping…

5) Pushing up on the fuel drain is not highly recommended…

6) there is a rubber tip on the drain that can get knocked off, ending any flight for the day…

7) Fuel has a funny way of carrying a variable amount of water in it… and can have that water fall out of solution based on temperature…

8) Avoid assuming there is no water in the fuel system because it hasn’t rained…

9) There are too many ways to get moisture in the system… without being aware of it getting in there.

10) a pan is often used to catch fluid that falls to the hangar floor… it’s a bit more challenging to be looking for water and dirt particles here… 

Summary…

There is one way to be sure moisture has been drained…

Drain two wing sumps, and…

two pulls on the gascolator drain… flipping the selector valve in between…

Don’t forget to be looking out for dirt, rust, or rubber particles whike you are there…

Thanks for sharing the details!

Best regards,

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

Interesting…
That’s a fine fettle of fish you came across there Aerospace!
 
1) All airplanes get a fuel drain at their lowest point in the system….  Our 65 and later planes have the gascolator at the lowest point…  M20Bs have a glass bowl up by the firewall…
2) We have one drain… that we pull twice.
3) Flip the fuel selector between pulls…
4) Do this early in the Pre-flight… to verify the fuel doesn’t continue to keep dripping…
5) Pushing up on the fuel drain is not highly recommended…
6) there is a rubber tip on the drain that can get knocked off, ending any flight for the day…
7) Fuel has a funny way of carrying a variable amount of water in it… and can have that water fall out of solution based on temperature…
8) Avoid assuming there is no water in the fuel system because it hasn’t rained…
9) There are too many ways to get moisture in the system… without being aware of it getting in there.
10) a pan is often used to catch fluid that falls to the hangar floor… it’s a bit more challenging to be looking for water and dirt particles here… 

Summary…
There is one way to be sure moisture has been drained…
Drain two wing sumps, and…
two pulls on the gascolator drain… flipping the selector valve in between…
Don’t forget to be looking out for dirt, rust, or rubber particles whike you are there…


Thanks for sharing the details!
Best regards,
-a-

BTW, order is important; always drain the wing drains first, then the gasolator.

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

BTW, order is important; always drain the wing drains first, then the gasolator.

Very true, and this is was a change in Mooney POH's over the years that began with draining the gascolator first thing with the other cockpit checks but changes over the years to drain the gascolator last - for good reason.

[Aerospace]

Engine is running now. Installed the mag with:

• "K" aligned in the little inspection plug window on the top of the mag
• Cylinder #1 at 25° BTDC on compression stroke (same as we did the first two tries)
• Tightened mag clamps with timing box indicating points opening at 25° BTDC for cyl #1 compression stroke

This time it worked, not sure what is different and why it worked this time and not the first two times. I guess We either got it wrong somehow, or maybe just got it too flooded.

Thanks for the taking the time folks. The fuel system is legit now, and the airplane is running again.

[carusoam]

41 minutes ago, Aerospace said:

Engine is running now. Installed the mag with:

• "K" aligned in the little inspection plug window on the top of the mag
• Cylinder #1 at 25° BTDC on compression stroke (same as we did the first two tries)
• Tightened mag clamps with timing box indicating points opening at 25° BTDC for cyl #1 compression stroke

This time it worked, not sure what is different and why it worked this time and not the first two times. I guess We either got it wrong somehow, or maybe just got it too flooded.

Thanks for the taking the time folks. The fuel system is legit now, and the airplane is running again.

Go MS!

Somebody to look over your shoulder when needed!

Best regards,

-a-

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Aerospace said:

Engine is running now. Installed the mag with:

• "K" aligned in the little inspection plug window on the top of the mag
• Cylinder #1 at 25° BTDC on compression stroke (same as we did the first two tries)
• Tightened mag clamps with timing box indicating points opening at 25° BTDC for cyl #1 compression stroke

This time it worked, not sure what is different and why it worked this time and not the first two times. I guess We either got it wrong somehow, or maybe just got it too flooded.

Thanks for the taking the time folks. The fuel system is legit now, and the airplane is running again.

Did you put the mag on with the lastest version of the clamps and with new lock washers.  These mags are known to fall off when installed wrong.

[Aerospace]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

Did you put the mag on with the lastest version of the clamps and with new lock washers.  These mags are known to fall off when installed wrong.

That's what my clamps look like. New lock washers too.