Aircraft sticker vs. sale price

[ArtVandelay]

An overhaul costs 25-30 from my research.

No way, not for a 6 cylinder turbo engine. Don’t forget the propeller.

[Tx_Aggie]

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20J+201&listing_id=2413028&s-type=aircraft
 

not trying to bash the older than J models, but having flown/rented a C and F before buying my J. It was worth paying just a little more to get into the J. I bought my 1980 J right before prices got crazy in 2020. They have great autopilots, all you need in this one to be functionally modern ifr is a gnc-375 for 5k and you’re off to the races. There are a few well priced J’s on trade a plane. I made an offer on mine about 15% under list price and we negotiated up some. Price came back down some when the test flight showed the GNS-480 actually didn’t work as advertised. Every seller is different but negotiating is never a bad tactic. The worst they can say is no and you go on to the next one. 
 

this one above looks fine to me. 

Edited January 14, 2023 by Tx_Aggie

[mkerian10]

29 minutes ago, Tx_Aggie said:

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20J+201&listing_id=2413028&s-type=aircraft
 

not trying to bash the older than J models, but having flown a C and F before buying my J. It was worth paying just a little more to get into the J. I bought my 1980 J right before prices got crazy in 2020. They have great autopilots, all you need in this one to be functionally modern ifr is a gnc-375 for 5k and you’re off to the races. There are a few well priced J’s on trade a plane. I made an offer on mine about 15% under list price and we negotiated up some. Price came back down some when the test flight showed the GNS-480 actually didn’t work as advertised. Every seller is different but negotiating is never a bad tactic. The worst they can say is no and you go on to the next one. 
 

this one above looks fine to me. 

Saving for a J would delay my purchase but likely only for a year or two. My question is why is it so worth it? I live in the midwest and will likely be travelling solo or rarely with another person. I'm in my mid-20s so it's fairly likely my lifestyle will change significantly but I doubt I'll be flying with any children for 5+ years. Right now I'd probably consider a C/E equally. But the J seems like it's going to be 30K+ vs. a C  and 20k+ vs. an E. Numbers are a bit fuzzy and while I'd love to go fast I feel like a C/E would have less maintenance and cost less while being ~10% slower. 

 

I'm not against a J but to me it feels like I'd rather get a nice short body than a low-end J.

[MikeOH]

33 minutes ago, mkerian10 said:

Saving for a J would delay my purchase but likely only for a year or two. My question is why is it so worth it? I live in the midwest and will likely be travelling solo or rarely with another person. I'm in my mid-20s so it's fairly likely my lifestyle will change significantly but I doubt I'll be flying with any children for 5+ years. Right now I'd probably consider a C/E equally. But the J seems like it's going to be 30K+ vs. a C  and 20k+ vs. an E. Numbers are a bit fuzzy and while I'd love to go fast I feel like a C/E would have less maintenance and cost less while being ~10% slower. 

 

I'm not against a J but to me it feels like I'd rather get a nice short body than a low-end J.

I think you have a pretty rational argument.  I'm a fan of fuel injection so I'd go with the E, but if you find a good C you can't go wrong.

 I chose an F over a J as I felt I was getting 90% of a J for a considerable discount.  I found it far more dependent on the condition of the individual plane vs. F/J or C/E model decisions.

[Fly Boomer]

8 hours ago, mkerian10 said:

Something else interesting, I saw this M20K for sale

 

That engine is on life support right now but outside of that it seems like a very well kept plane.

I don't know anything about this airplane, owner, or mechanic, but it seems unusual to spend $14,000 for the most recent annual inspection.  There might be a pleasing explanation, but it jumps out.

[Fly Boomer]

6 hours ago, mkerian10 said:

Saving for a J would delay my purchase but likely only for a year or two.

I love to see young people get into aviation, but before you jump in, I would encourage you to gather information and get a picture of your total cost of ownership.  Purchase price can end up being irrelevant.

[ArtVandelay]

 I chose an F over a J as I felt I was getting 90% of a J for a considerable discount.

This discount applies when you sell.

If this will be your forever plane, I would buy the J vs F, more likely to recover more of your upgrade “investments”.

It would be interesting to get statistics of multiple Mooney owners, what models they bought first vs what they upgraded to.

[A64Pilot]

You can’t really tell much from an AD, you need to go see the airplane, and don’t be fooled too much with pretty, pretty doesn’t really matter and contrary to popular belief does not indicate condition.

Some things differ by people, one acts like fabric seats is a detractor, they don’t live in a hot climate, where leather is good, only if you have airconditioning.

 

[bcg]

Saving for a J would delay my purchase but likely only for a year or two. My question is why is it so worth it? I live in the midwest and will likely be travelling solo or rarely with another person. I'm in my mid-20s so it's fairly likely my lifestyle will change significantly but I doubt I'll be flying with any children for 5+ years. Right now I'd probably consider a C/E equally. But the J seems like it's going to be 30K+ vs. a C  and 20k+ vs. an E. Numbers are a bit fuzzy and while I'd love to go fast I feel like a C/E would have less maintenance and cost less while being ~10% slower. 
 
I'm not against a J but to me it feels like I'd rather get a nice short body than a low-end J.

The biggest advantage of the J is that parts availability for the J's and later is a LOT better than it is for the earlier models. It can be a big challenge to.find some parts for my C, sometimes necessitating an OPP or frankenfix to get it in the air again. I turn my own wrenches, under the supervision of an MSC, and parts availability is the main reason they try to steer people to J's or newer. Mooney still has all the tooling for the J's, they don't for the earlier models.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

[bcg]

I have used your technique when selling.  I ask the potential buyer if he wants my "haggling price" or "bottom dollar".  Some potential buyers understand this, and we can cut to the chase.  Others ask for the "bottom dollar", and then try to haggle from there.  Just walk away without a word.

It's so much easier when both sides are honest and sincere. I think everyone ends up happier in the end as well. It's been 5 months and I still talk to the seller pretty regularly, he's been a great source of help and knowledge when I run into issues or have questions. Without that good relationship, it would have been a lot harder to really learn the plane and its quirks.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

[larrynimmo]

Be willing to pay for a J….

1. Has fuel injected motor…can easily run LOP

2. better fuel mileage and speed…better than 10 knot speed advantage…

3. More room (less useful load)

4. Cowling can be removed in 10 minutes by one person

5.much better engine cooling design

6. Dry electronics (more difficult to upgrade)

7. Cleaner wingtip lines on newer J

8. resale value

9. no recurring AD prop inspection

10. better designed interior panels…easier to remove, reassemble, and to change out

11.  Phenomenal fresh airflow

12.  Oem parts much more readily available

[Tx_Aggie]

14 hours ago, mkerian10 said:

Saving for a J would delay my purchase but likely only for a year or two. My question is why is it so worth it? I live in the midwest and will likely be travelling solo or rarely with another person. I'm in my mid-20s so it's fairly likely my lifestyle will change significantly but I doubt I'll be flying with any children for 5+ years. Right now I'd probably consider a C/E equally. But the J seems like it's going to be 30K+ vs. a C  and 20k+ vs. an E. Numbers are a bit fuzzy and while I'd love to go fast I feel like a C/E would have less maintenance and cost less while being ~10% slower. 

 

I'm not against a J but to me it feels like I'd rather get a nice short body than a low-end J.

I thought you were commenting on making an offer on two different K models A few posts ago. If your range is between C,E and Ks a J fits in that range. But if you’re just starting out, I’d agree on the C/E - those are great planes to start out on and learn how to manage expenses. 

[rickseeman]

I had an F. Loved it. Back and forth, Arkansas to Vegas. Wonderful trips. But if you are shopping for an F, then you have an obligation to look at J's since J prices define F prices. A F will bring X% of what a J will. If you end up with an F everything will be fine. If it was me, I would shop financing. I might find some longer term financing and get a J for the same payment as I was planning to pay for an F. Welcome to life as a Mooniac.

[MikeOH]

6 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

This discount applies when you sell.

If this will be your forever plane, I would buy the J vs F, more likely to recover more of your upgrade “investments”.

It would be interesting to get statistics of multiple Mooney owners, what models they bought first vs what they upgraded to.

The way I viewed it was that I was getting nearly J performance with my F (has all the speed mods, but admittedly still not as fast) and so what if when I sell it doesn't get what a J would?  Why would it?  I paid less up front; I didn't buy a plane as an investment!

I may not have bought my F as a forever plane, but I didn't buy it as an entry point plane, either.  I found one that had everything I wanted: IFR WAAS, A/P with Alt Hold, engine monitor, fuel flow, no eddy-current prop hub.  In fact, in five years of ownership I have not spent a dime on upgrades.  Why would I? I really don't want glass or the latest Garmin radio; those would not provide any functionality over what I have.  Consequently, I don't see the need to worry about recovering my upgrade "investments."

I do wonder if a J with the same upgrades as an F would really recover more.  That is an interesting question.  Say you spent $40K on both.  I've always felt you'd be lucky to get half that, $20K, back.  How much more would a J get back vs. an F?  $5K, $10K additional, I can't imagine more.  BWTHDIK?

As far as upgrading to another plane, I think I'd need to win the lotto!  I certainly wouldn't go to the expense and effort to go to a J or K.

Pilatus PC-12 or nothing!

[ArtVandelay]

In fact, in five years of ownership I have not spent a dime on upgrades.  Why would I? I really don't want glass or the latest Garmin radio; those would not provide any functionality over what I have.  Consequently, I don't see the need to worry about recovering my upgrade "investments."
I do wonder if a J with the same upgrades as an F would really recover more.  That is an interesting question.  Say you spent $40K on both.  I've always felt you'd be lucky to get half that, $20K, back.  How much more would a J get back vs. an F?  $5K, $10K additional, I can't imagine more.  BWTHDIK?

Okay, first saying that glass doesn’t provide any functionality over your old 6 pack panel is just silly.
Maybe you meant you don’t want (to pay for) the additional functionality.

Js have an upper top end, so that’s why I said you can recover more of your upgrade costs. This is true of any more modern models. There’s also a higher standard for the modern models, like no wing levelers….fully functional 2 axis autopilot is expected. Garrison probably could definitively tell us how much this is true.

[MikeOH]

12 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Okay, first saying that glass doesn’t provide any functionality over your old 6 pack panel is just silly.
Maybe you meant you don’t want (to pay for) the additional functionality.

Js have an upper top end, so that’s why I said you can recover more of your upgrade costs. This is true of any more modern models. There’s also a higher standard for the modern models, like no wing levelers….fully functional 2 axis autopilot is expected. Garrison probably could definitively tell us how much this is true.

Well, thanks for the insult, but what functionality does 'glass' have over my WAAS, GPSS A/P, and six-pack?  Is there some approach that I can't fly that 'glass' can?  The fact that airspeed, altitude, VSI, etc. are all-in-one may be convenient, but that's NOT the same thing as ADDITIONAL functionality.

Sure, a J has a higher upper end but, again, does that mean you get $30K back on your $40K upgrade with a J instead of only $20K with an F?  I'm not convinced, but maybe Garrison can answer.

I get it, we are both defending our choice, J vs. F.  I'm just trying to make the OP aware of what the F offers, just like you promoting the J.

And, my F doesn't have the dreaded "no-back spring" to worry about

[ArtVandelay]

Well, thanks for the insult, but what functionality does 'glass' have over my WAAS, GPSS A/P, and six-pack?  Is there some approach that I can't fly that 'glass' can?  The fact that airspeed, altitude, VSI, etc. are all-in-one may be convenient, but that's NOT the same thing as ADDITIONAL functionality.
Sure, a J has a higher upper end but, again, does that mean you get $30K back on your $40K upgrade with a J instead of only $20K with an F?  I'm not convinced, but maybe Garrison can answer.
I get it, we are both defending our choice, J vs. F.  I'm just trying to make the OP aware of what the F offers, just like you promoting the J.
And, my F doesn't have the dreaded "no-back spring" to worry about

I’m not sure what I said was insulting, certainly didn’t mean it.
Yes, you can fly the same airspace, same approaches.
Some additional functionality above a 6 pack:
Situation awareness: maps, magenta diamond showing course with wind correction, waypoint information lookup, bottom of descent marker, TAS, OAT, display ADSB data (traffic, wx), etc. Yes, you can do some of this with FF/GP.
Paired with appropriate AP and GPS fly holds, VNAV, approaches down to minimums.
I didn’t say you need glass but I think most pilots who fly a glass panel long enough to be comfortable with it would want one in their airplane.

[MikeOH]

8 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

I’m not sure what I said was insulting, certainly didn’t mean it.
Yes, you can fly the same airspace, same approaches.
Some additional functionality above a 6 pack:
Situation awareness: maps, magenta diamond showing course with wind correction, waypoint information lookup, bottom of descent marker, TAS, OAT, display ADSB data (traffic, wx), etc. Yes, you can do some of this with FF/GP.
Paired with appropriate AP and GPS fly holds, VNAV, approaches down to minimums.
I didn’t say you need glass but I think most pilots who fly a glass panel long enough to be comfortable with it would want one in their airplane.

As you pointed out, I have most of those abilities with FF on my iPad (I still stop short of calling them functionality with exception of ADSB): FF provides all the waypoint/supplement information that I could ask for, traffic and weather display, maps, and my setup will fly holds.  IMHO the iPad is also a MUCH superior display for all of those than anything a glass in-panel display offers.

True, my setup will not couple for vertical guidance.  But that's more a functionality of the A/P system than a 'glass panel.'

No doubt the latest, greatest offerings become addictive...Garmin et al wouldn't continue to be successful if not!

[Hank]

4 hours ago, larrynimmo said:

Be willing to pay for a J….

1. Has fuel injected motor…can easily run LOP--my C runs ~145KTAS ROP, and my 52 gal will last 5 hours plus reserves, plenty long enough for me. 

2. better fuel mileage and speed…better than 10 knot speed advantage…

3. More room (less useful load)--my C is 970 lb, and I run out of cube before weight. But I've never had to leave people or stuff behind.

4. Cowling can be removed in 10 minutes by one person--only twice as long as it takes me, alone. And my cowl is metal, so the screw holes don't wear and elongate.t

5.much better engine cooling design

6. Dry electronics (more difficult to upgrade)--the 201 windshield gives me this, plus limited outside access, too.

7. Cleaner wingtip lines on newer J--a previous owner put these on my C.

8. resale value--your purchase price was also higher.

9. no recurring AD prop inspection--none on mine, either, never was.

10. better designed interior panels…easier to remove, reassemble, and to change out--no idea, only had mine out twice--left and right sides, two piece ceiling. The pain is the back seat!

11.  Phenomenal fresh airflow--yep! Even in Ohio winter, I had to keep fresh air cracked to keep the heater from melting us.

12.  Oem parts much more readily available--I don't really think there's much difference. Mooney only has jigs for the long bodies anymore, which doesn't help either of us. 

Vintage Mooneys come in several flavors prior to owner modifications. See my responses above for my factory-electric 1970 C.

Also for my C:

1. The O-360 is incredibly easy to start, hot or cold.
2. It does not have the infamous, unavailable "no back spring" in the gear motor.
3. My gear motor (ITT) has no AD.
4. Nose tire only requires 30 psi air, not 49 psi. All tires are the same air pressure.
5. Will carry full fuel, myself and 470 lb of "other stuff."
6. Real cruise at ~145KTAS for only 8.5 gph, ROP. Simple!
7. I'm not Mikey, don't like 3000' takeoff rolls due to high fuel loads, and have no desire to sit in my Mooney for 8-12 hours.
8. I like the throttle quadrant!
9. Lower entry price, lower insurance costs, same Mooney excitement!

So it's all about the individual plane rather than the model. Sure, some have leaky hydraulic flaps; some have prop hubs with ADs; some have unobtainable parts with limited lifespans; some have a gazillion screws on the cowling or belly (mine has neither!); some have recognition lights that melt the lenses if turned on while on the ground (but mine doesn't).

Find a Mooney in the best physical and mechanical shape, wit nas much equipment that you want already installed. This will be more important in the long run than exactly which model letter you purchase. 

[mkerian10]

5 hours ago, Tx_Aggie said:

I thought you were commenting on making an offer on two different K models A few posts ago. If your range is between C,E and Ks a J fits in that range. But if you’re just starting out, I’d agree on the C/E - those are great planes to start out on and learn how to manage expenses. 

Oh I'm not thinking about a K I was just trying to get some more understanding about how aircrafts are priced. I neglected to consider hull time

[A64Pilot]

The price difference between identically equipped F’s and J’s just really isn’t as much as you might think, not compared to ownership costs.

Said another way but if you can’t afford a J, you may not can afford an F either. It’s one thing to buy, its a whole nuther thing to keep one, be realistic with ownership costs, they may be higher than you think at first, if you run real numbers then factor in things like spalled lifters etc., it gets way more expensive than many think. A reason you see so many airplanes sitting on ramps seemingly abandoned is often people can’t afford to keep the thing, so it sits. Once it gets so that it’s going to cost over 5 or 10K or so just to get it airworthy often is just too much

Everything else being equal an older airplane will cost more to maintain than a newer one, enough so that the price difference is somewhat mitigated, this is within reason of course, it’s only true for reasonable comparisons, the newer F compared to an older J for instance. It doesn’t hold up if you try a 1965 Mooney to a new Cirrus of course.

J’s for whatever reason are more sought after, I know I wanted a J for instance, but this drives the price up, so it’s likely an F is a better value.

[carusoam]

How aircraft are priced…

1) Model

 

Then adjusted by…

2) Year… newer has certain attributes standard, compared to older…

3) engine hours… OH cost /2000 X hrs left… somewhat a linear value…

4) exterior condition… paint is expensive

5) interior condition… most easy fix, but still kinda expensive

6) avionics… the panel can cost more than the plane… capital cost is half the total complete installation…

 

Experienced buyers are looking for a plane that has been…

7) Flying regularly…

8) the last OH in the last 20yrs…

 

Some buyers looking to create their forever plane… like.

9) a near run out engine, they will OH.

10) ancient instrument panel, they will re-design.

 

Last on the list…  Total hours flown on the airframe…

11) Mooneys don’t have time limited airframe parts…

12) Proper maintenance is everything throughout its life.

12a) Less than 5k hrs is nice, more than 15k hrs is hard to find…

12b) all wear items are easy to replace….

 

Popular strategy…

13) Buy the best plane you can afford today…

14) Waiting delays where you are trying to go…

15) There is always a really worn out version of the next plane above what you are looking at… don’t fall for that one…

16) Trying out ownership… kind of an expensive route if it doesn’t work out…

17) Long term ownership… really works out when you go the distance…

 

Lessons learned…

18) Capital costs can be as much as your house…

19) Operations cost can be much more…

20) You will love how it works out…

 

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic…

Best regards,

-a-

[shawnd]

On 1/13/2023 at 6:44 AM, Pinecone said:

And when you find the plane that grabs you, and you start thinking that that is YOUR plane, then make an offer.

This one advice is often missed when you get too bogged down on finding a good deal. Of course, the price matters but this plane will be your baby, esp. if it's your forever plane. You will be spending a lot of time in the hangar working on "your plane" or showing pictures of "your plane" to others. And of course, your wallet will get lighter as the months go by b/c of "your plane".  You may even start justifying a few extras to your significant other and they will relent b/c they know its "your plane". So make sure it's the one that grabs your attention as Pinecone said and the one you really desire. I was initially looking at 231s but when I ran across my 252, I knew it was mine - and I have enjoyed every single day of ownership. Perhaps I am a bit too romantic about these beautiful birds

[Pinecone]

15 hours ago, shawnd said:

I was initially looking at 231s but when I ran across my 252, I knew it was mine - and I have enjoyed every single day of ownership. Perhaps I am a bit too romantic about these beautiful birds

That is because you acknowledged that the 252 is the Ultimate Mooney.

 

[jetdriven]

The 252 is what you get whenever you fix all the things bad about the 231.  I srrsly dont know how the original version ever escaped the factory, and there were actually better versions of that powerplant flying around when it was originally released.   But the 252 they got it right.