Fire Extinguisher Requirement

[PWL]

My 1985 Mooney M20J is undergoing the annual inspection and the A&P notified me that the floor-mounted  Amerex 403 fire extinguisher was out of specification (2 oz less than the required weight) and since it was mounted, it has to be replaced with one meeting specifications.  Does anyone know if that is correct?  The Amerex 403 apparently no longer available, if it has to be replaced, does anyone know of an acceptable replacement?  Finally, is the fire extinguisher required equipment for airworthiness? 

[PT20J]

A fire extinguisher is not required for light, piston powered aircraft operated under part 91. Since it is not required, there is no requirement to maintain it, but it’s certainly a good idea. It should not hold up an annual inspection. I took mine to a fire extinguisher service company and had it inspected and recharged when I bought the airplane in 2018. It hadn’t been touched since the airplane was built in 1994.

Skip

[PWL]

Thanks, great advice.

[Pinecone]

Ask to see what regulation requires it and specifies the size.

[GeeBee]

My IA said the FAA is all over IAs about fire extinguishers. They are using DOT regulations, not FARs to make the case, much like O2 bottles. IOW if it there, it has to be maintained.

[Scottknoll]

It’s only in 91.513 that I can find. And that only applies to large or turbine powered. It’s not in the TCDS or AFM Kinds of Operations Equipment List. So I would agree that it’s not required. That being said, I was at an MSC for unrelated service and they threw mine out because it was underweight and also didn’t tell me… I immediately ordered this replacement. https://www.chiefaircraft.com/hln-c352ts.html

It’s not cheap and has gone up in price since I bought it. Nobody produces halon now, so it’s all recycled halon placed into new extinguishers. I wanted a gauge so that I could know at all times it was ready to go. It fit nicely in the Ovation mounting location with a slight trim of the bracket. I’m not sure if all Mooney’s have the same mount.

I studied a Bonanza fatal engine/cockpit fire, including seeing the aircraft in person. It scared the bejesus out of me.

I’d agree that, depending on how much you want to push your IA, it would be prudent to ask what regulation he is referencing that requires you to replace that extinguisher. I’d be curious if there’s an obscure reg I am missing.

[Jim F]

You can take the fire extinguisher out for the annual and install after its signed off.

[A64Pilot]

AC spruce sells Halon fire extinguishers.

You only want Halon in an aircraft, I believe the FAA only allows Halon in Commercial aircraft. If you discharge dry chemical in a cockpit, be prepared to be blind and not able to breathe.

 Do not dispose of the out of spec one, Halon is highly recycled, the Halon in your bottle is worth money. Halon is no longer manufactured in first world countries so any you buy is from recycled supplies, just like many refrigerants. A quick Google will give you companies that buy it.

I believe developing countries you know like China are still allowed. I bought several cans of virgin R-12 when I was in Korea in 99.

[A64Pilot]

There are two types of Halon that’s widely available, 1211 and 1301

One is a liquid and that one can have a gauge as it uses another gas as a propellant, the other is a gas and that one has to be weighed because it will hold pressure all the way to empty, both have advantages, the big bottles that use to flood computer rooms etc are the gas one.

AC spruce sells some that are mixes of the two types, the gas type of halon propels the liquid type out so you get both, it has to be weighed though, no gauge.

This is the one I have, it’s the mix and aviation discussion

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pspages/rta1200.php

explanation of the “blend”, list of applicable FAR’s etc

http://www.nfpa.it/d_faq_avi.htm

[Pinecone]

There is also Halotron.  Not as effective as Halon, so you need a larger amount for the same size fire.  But unlike Halon, this one is still being made.

If a shop threw out my Halon extinguisher, for whatever reason, they would be replacing it on their dime. 

Halon is highly recycled, so a good fire extinguisher shop should be able to top it off, or recycle the Halon into a new one.

[A64Pilot]

I had halon automatics on the boat, engine room, generator and behind the electrical panel, I had a large 11 lb Halotron hand held and a 

“port” on the engine room you stuck the hose into, Halotron is half as effective as Halon but much cheaper. I bought mine through a restaurant supply house.

But if memory serves an 11 lb Halotron was still $500 or so and that was 6 years or so ago.

Many Military aircraft have a “port” into the engine compt that you shove the extinguisher hose into to extinguish the fire.

Fire on a boat at sea is worse than sinking, I even had a long hose connected to the fresh water tank, cause with wood and fabrics, water is very effective, not saying in an airplane, Halon is best there.

Years ago I flooded my C-140 and set it on fire starting it, holding the throttle wide open and running the starter didn’t suck all the fire into the engine either, but the extinguisher put it out.

Again years ago at Jack Brown’s sea plane base a customer who brought his own Maule on floats down was being shown the how to start a hot Lycoming by flooding it and doing a flooded start, burnt the thing down to nothing real fast.

So while unlikely it can happen to us.

Before I moved into the neighborhood a Bo went down on T/O here, pax died in the crash, pilot could be seen moving around in the burning cockpit trying to get out, didn’t make it. I got that part from witnesses after reading the NTSB report that had zero CO in the pax blood, but real high CO in the pilots.

Maybe if there had been a fire extinguisher?

[N201MKTurbo]

25 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

 

Before I moved into the neighborhood a Bo went down on T/O here, pax died in the crash, pilot could be seen moving around in the burning cockpit trying to get out, didn’t make it.

Wow, that's the stuff nightmares are made of.

[A64Pilot]

I found this, of course it doesn’t contain the pilot was seen trying to escape, but does say he had 17% CO in his blood, I assume that’s a lot and shows he was alive for a lot of the fire. I have no knowledge about CO content, I’m just guessing. I’ve only seen numbers as PPM not %.

Apparently both were extremely experienced with I think over 10,000 hours maybe for each, Wx was perfect etc, low stress flight.

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2015/08/beech-n35-bonanza-n390z-fatal-accident.html

Now every bit of this is my opinion, but I think they were good friends going on a low stress easy flight, we taxi through the neighborhood roads to the runways here so we taxi slower than a regular straight airport taxiway, many taxi leaned out, my supposition is they did too, and got to talking and simply forgot to go back full rich, and took off leaned out.

I taxi leaned out too, but because of this and other accidents I’ve read about I’m so lean she won’t accelerate above about 1500 RPM or so, in short you can’t even do a mag check, much less attempt a takeoff.

[Hank]

4 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

out I’m so lean she won’t accelerate above about 1500 RPM or so, in short you can’t even do a mag check, much less attempt a takeoff.

I taxi so leaned out that I must enrichen it to taxi uphill. Parked in grass once, started engine, leaned and taxied fine until I reached the asphalt and the engine died. Just lean enough to be safe and not foul the plugs! Fortunately, hot starts are stupid simple with the O-360.

[Pinecone]

The other thing to look at in the NTSB report is for smoke in the lungs.

 

A large fuel fire after a crash, that small extinguisher is not going to do much of anything.  Remember, on the flight line for engine fires, they had the BIG ones on wheels.  And that was just to somewhat control it until the fire department rolled with trucks and foam and other things.

[jaylw314]

I assume a fire extinguisher would be used more for electrical fires than fuel fires.  I recall hearing a story at our local EAA of a kit plane builder who took a friend for a quick circuit in a tandem seat.  They had an fuel leak and engine bay fire on takeoff, and by the time they came around to land, it had burned through the aluminum floor of the cabin, killing the pilot and injuring the passenger.  I'm guessing a Halon extinguisher would have been of little use 

39 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I taxi leaned out too, but because of this and other accidents I’ve read about I’m so lean she won’t accelerate above about 1500 RPM or so, in short you can’t even do a mag check, much less attempt a takeoff.

FWIW, an easy way of taxi leaning I've found is when you're first starting to roll.  You bump the throttle up to 1200-1300 RPM or so to get rollling, then crank down the mixture until it starts dropping.  Now you know if you apply full throttle, it won't go above 1200 RPM.

[A64Pilot]

27 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

The other thing to look at in the NTSB report is for smoke in the lungs.

 

A large fuel fire after a crash, that small extinguisher is not going to do much of anything.  Remember, on the flight line for engine fires, they had the BIG ones on wheels.  And that was just to somewhat control it until the fire department rolled with trucks and foam and other things.

A halon bottle may knock it down enough for you to get out, halon interferes with the fire interface with O2 somehow chemically and is far more effective than pretty much anything, only a 5% concentration of halon makes fire impossible, but leaves you plenty of O2 to breathe.

Of course it may not too. As there is only one door on most low wing aircraft if the pax is deceased that’s going to make it tough to get out, halon or not.

Not every crash is survivable, but I still wear my belt, and carry a fire bottle, because some are

[Pinecone]

Yeap, some times your number is up.

Practicing emergency egress is a good thing also.

[GeeBee]

The common fire, and I've seen two long bodies burned and needed repairs is this scenario. You pull the sump and drain the belly drain. The puddle sits underneath and a start is attempted. The engine backfires and the flame burst out the exhaust pipe starts the puddle on fire. For this reason, I never start over the puddle wet or dry. I move the airplane off the spot. 

 

[Mufflerbearing]

Years ago, we purchased a bunch of Halon fire extinguishers for track duty.  Mostly because it's not caustic and will not damage the cars computers or wiring.  After one car fire where the Halon was used, the on site medics had me hang upside down for a time to get the halon out of my lungs.  It's heavier than air and when inhaled, settles low in the lungs.  Heavy breathing upside down expels the halon easily.  Here is the point.  If this is not done, a person has heart attack symptoms in 10 days.  It's not a heart attack, just halon poisoning that can be easily treated if the doctors know that halon was inhaled.  Important to be treated for the right thing when time counts.

[OR75]

The issue your A&P has is that accessories is permanently attached and good chances there is a logbook entry and a weight and balance entry. 

[EricJ]

11 minutes ago, Mufflerbearing said:

Years ago, we purchased a bunch of Halon fire extinguishers for track duty.  Mostly because it's not caustic and will not damage the cars computers or wiring.  After one car fire where the Halon was used, the on site medics had me hang upside down for a time to get the halon out of my lungs.  It's heavier than air and when inhaled, settles low in the lungs.  Heavy breathing upside down expels the halon easily.  Here is the point.  If this is not done, a person has heart attack symptoms in 10 days.  It's not a heart attack, just halon poisoning that can be easily treated if the doctors know that halon was inhaled.  Important to be treated for the right thing when time counts.

I had a race car with an on-board Halon system with two five pound bottles back when that was the cool thing to do.    We always wondered if you were upside down and on fire, do you activate the Halon?    Fortunately never had to make that decision.

Halon is not great, especially in a small closed cabin, but there really aren't any options that are great for that case.   A handheld in a small airplane cabin has very limited usefulness, but for those few cases where it might help, it might help.

Even in the race car with the Halon system I carried a handheld, because most car fires start out as some piddly little fire that can be put out easily if you get to it reasonably quickly or at least without a long delay.   It was expensive and a little dangerous to fire the Halon system, so the handheld was very useful when you could just pull over and put out something small before it got big.    That just doesn't work in an airplane unless you're already on the ground.

[Pinecone]

The great thing about Halon, other than it does not leave a mess is, that the amount needed to suppress a fire it well below the level of immediate issues for the people.

I did not know about the hang upside down thing, and it is a good thing to know.  But looking online, I do not see any mention of this.  Do you have an actual source other that the medic (what qualifications) said so?

[quote]This is because exposures to concentrations of 7% for more than 15 minutes can be very dangerous. The risk is minor when exposed to Halon in the 5-7% range as no noticeable effect can occur. However, at levels between 7% to 10%, the likelihood of toxicity increases significantly. That’s why, in places where Halon is still used and needed to be used, it is highly recommended that operators evacuate the space before proceeding.[/quote]

 

 

[GeeBee]

Consider that transport cargo fire suppression in even Class C compartments consists of Halon concentration sufficient to suppress, not extinguish fire. It can maintain that concentration out of some relatively small cylinders for over 200 minutes in some airplanes. While normal airflow will usually prevent halon from reaching the passenger deck, there is no guarantee that airflow will be normal or that the packs will even be operating so for that reason tests are performed with static air. A little halon goes a long way. Most people use too much. Again consider the discharge of halon onto an engine fire where there is huge amounts of airflow in and around the cowling, but yet those little bottles get the job done.  By the way, if you want to bust a check ride, ok the fire crew to open the cargo compartment before getting the people off. 

[A64Pilot]

It’s actually difficult to get high enough halon to hurt you, sure if you put a garbage bag over your head and discharged the bottle in it.

M1 tanks and Bradley fighting vehicles have automatic halon extinguishers and the crew members stay inside with a halon level that makes fire impossible. Our simulator building had huge tanks of it and would flood the entire building, and of course everyone said if you were in the building when it discharged you would die, which of course was wrong.

Army is being pushed REAL hard or was to get rid of the Halon by environmentalist, but by the time I retired 20 years ago there was no substitute, anything that will kill the fire will also kill the occupants. I wouldn’t be surprised to hear they now have CO2, which will kill the occupants but hey it protects the environment, wait a minute isn’t CO2 the newest bad guy?

The Halon toxicity myth has been around for a long time, some refrigerants can in fact settle in your lungs and suffocate you, and Halon is very similar to some refrigerants, but I don’t think it’s an issue with halon. I’ve looked and can’t find a death from Halon. Of course any gas in sufficient quantity can suffocate you if it displaces enough O2 including Halon.

https://www.protectionrt.com/halon-toxicity/

Not all Halon replacements are as safe though

https://mashable.com/article/bangkok-extinguisher-death

 

I remember reading years ago a HVAC technician used R-22 I think to fill the air mattresses when camping and later topped them off with his lungs, it killed him.

Refrigerant can be deadly https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10793627/Faulty-air-conditioner-killed-three-Americans-luxury-Bahamas-resort-Sandals-guests-say.html

I have third degree burns down my left shoulder and back from many years ago, burns suck and are exceedingly painful, if I’m on fire or in a fire I’m discharging the Halon