Mountain Flying

[BravoWhiskey]

I am considering a flight out West but would prefer not to do so until I get some mountain flying training.  My trip would include Denver, Salt Lake City and Albuquerque.  I would assume get to Denver and take a course there before heading on to SLC.  Any recommendations for a good course, school or instructor in the Greater Denver area?

[EricJ]

17 minutes ago, BravoWhiskey said:

I am considering a flight out West but would prefer not to do so until I get some mountain flying training.  My trip would include Denver, Salt Lake City and Albuquerque.  I would assume get to Denver and take a course there before heading on to SLC.  Any recommendations for a good course, school or instructor in the Greater Denver area?

If you search youtube for "mountain flying training" there are a number of videos from FAA FAAST, Air Safety Institute, and a bunch of other good sources that cover a lot of stuff.   There used to be one of the Wings on-line courses on mountain flying, but I can't find it at the moment.    These are all very useful to get a good idea of what's involved.   I don't personally find it necessary to get specific training, but that's just me.   

The main thing is to watch the weather.

[carusoam]

BW,

We have a couple of threads where people have discussed who they used, where, regarding getting this training…

For all things Denver related… I always asked @Joe Zuffoletto… Joe used to fly a nice Long Body out there and took it to the coast often…

Congrats on making a wise decision…

Best regards,

-a-

[toto]

1 minute ago, carusoam said:

BW,

We have a couple of threads where people have discussed who they used, where, regarding getting this training…

For all things Denver related… I always asked @Joe Zuffoletto… Joe used to fly a nice Long Body out there and took it to the coast often…

Congrats on making a wise decision…

Best regards,

-a-

I also enjoy the “Man and a Mooney” mountain flying videos on YouTube. These are somewhat less instructional and more “fun,” but definitely worth a watch. 

The YouTuber is @Christian here on MS. 

[carusoam]

Christian is on my YT subscription list… I have brief thoughts shared in his comments section… 

Go Mooney!

-a-

[skykrawler]

One can spend many hours watching videos and reading material - much more than you will get from a 1 or 2 hour flight with an instructor.  There is a tendency to think having an instructor will save your bacon after things go sideways.  Mostly they keep you from getting in a bad place to start with.   The single most important thing to experience at high altitude airports is the reduced of performance at high density altitude.  Even with a turbo it takes longer for the machine to accelerate because the prop is not as efficient.

Climb to 7500, slow to stall in a clean configuration.  Observe your true airspeed.   Apply climb power and try to climb at 500fpm in a simulated takeoff.  You will get the picture.

[EricJ]

8 hours ago, toto said:

I also enjoy the “Man and a Mooney” mountain flying videos on YouTube. These are somewhat less instructional and more “fun,” but definitely worth a watch. 

The YouTuber is @Christian here on MS. 

His videos are great, partly because he uses good contextual examples with good visuals, etc.    It makes it a lot easier to really relate to the points.

[FoxMike]

You might look at the webpage for Colorado Pilots Association.  They have an excellent Mountain Flying Course.  Unfortunately the last class was taught this weekend.  You might be able to contact one of their instructors and work out some instruction.  Their is a lot to know about flying in the mountains so plan for at least one full day of instruction.  A "quickie" mountain checkout is really not sufficient.  

[Schllc]

I flew my acclaim from Florida to Oregon via colorado, Idaho, Montana, South Dakota…

I don’t think it’s as critical with a turbo, I was well above the mountains and up/downdrafts. 
I didn’t venture into any bad or even marginal weather and landed at airports of widely varying altitudes. 
If you plan to fly down low in the valleys for scenic views I would say definitely get some good training. 
if you are just traveling, stay high and avoid weather. 
there is a great mountain flying school near Johnson’s creek Idaho. It’s a couple of days and you do some real back country stuff. 

[Marc_B]

Colorado Pilots Association has a mountain flying course that also has an optional mountain flight through Kremmling, eagle, vail, Leadville and over some well known passes. It’s worth it in my mind to get pointed experience with Colorado flying and exploring off the beaten path airports. That being said, part of the training is geared towards choosing the right weather and what resources exist to cue you into a good day to fly and how to anticipate the bad days before they reach you. Another part is geared towards reading wind, anticipation of updrafts and downdrafts, and learning to take advantage of “riding the wave” and how to cross mountain passes safely. The final big section is devoted to survival of a night out and proper preparation. Even in best case of a safe crash you still may very well have to brave an overnight before you can be found or helped. 
That being said, most CO airports have plenty long runways and with proper leaning if NA,  or a turbo, don’t pose too great a challenge if you understand high density altitude and pay attention to it. But that’s also why I think my M20K makes a great Colorado plane. A turbo is a great equalizer. 
Also keep in mind flying in the front range around I-25 and east isn’t the same as flying into a mountain airport, I.e. Glenwood Springs.  Flying into Glenwood you loose sight of runway till final, so when you have learned what hill to fly your pattern around and what copse of trees to aim for it makes the landing WAY less eventful and much safer…even when you already knew how to pick a perfect weather day!

Good luck and have fun! Mountain flying is a really pretty and scenic adventure and like any flight over inhospitable terrain deserves a little forethought and planning. 

[Utah20Gflyer]

So, for us that fly in the mountains we follow some practical rules that help keep us safe and away from potential risks.  These mainly apply to cross country flying, doing touch and goes in the pattern you can ignore some of these. 

Here are a few.

1.  Don't fly when it's very hot.

2. Don't fly when it's very windy.

3. Don't fly when you have a lot of clouds near the level of the mountain tops. 

4.  Fly at least 2k over any terrain along your route although the more altitude the better.  

5.  In the summer and especially this month you have to be very careful about convective weather popping up in the afternoon.  Generally best to fly as early as possible.  Thunderstorms pop up fast and can be very intense and dangerous. 

6.  Try hard not to fly at night.  

7.  Look for longer runways, a 4k runway in the West is a short one, 3k is really short.  I'd look for greater than 5k.

8.  Try to fly over the lowest terrain possible even if it adds a bit to your flight time.   So for instance from Denver to Salt lake I would fly north into Wyoming and then across the south part of Wyoming and into Utah.   Lots more places to set down if you end up having a problem and the terrain is lower giving you better clearance.  

Training is a great idea, the more you know the better off you will be.  

Ps, not a CFI just a guy with a Mooney in the Mountains. 

 

 

[Marc_B]

Also I’m sure you could contact Colorado Pilots Association to connect you to an instructor.  I flew with a gentleman in Longmont, Don Dolce, who previously flew a 231. It was more of a personal tour guide and experience resource rather than flight instructor for the flight. 

[BravoWhiskey]

Appreciate all the advice.  I personally really enjoy picking up experience from the experienced.  I’ve got all the right tools, I just want to be sure I use them properly.  

[FoxMike]

Let me add a couple of thoughts.  Someone mentioned a flying school near Johnson Creek, Id.  Do not waste your time there.  They are teaching techniques to allow the pilot to use back country airstrips (grass, gravel and rough).  Mooneys generally and especially Bravos are not suited for those airstrips.  I heard of a guy who showed up in a J model and they refused to train him.  

The Bravo is a good weather airplane and works well over the Rockies.  I have flown mine IFR over the rocks on more than one occasion.  

[The Other Red Baron]

I was planning a trip to Yellowstone a couple years ago and wanted to get mountain flying experience first since I'm a flat lander.  I found Don Dolce on the Colorado Pilot's Association out of Longmont, CO and he agreed to do a mountain flying course with me in my M20E.  It was great and I highly recommend him.  Longmont is a nice town and airport to get in/out of.  Solid ground training and then a tour of the popular mountain airports and passes- Hagerman pass, Rollins pass, Kremmling, Glenwood Springs, Steamboat Springs, Leadville, and I'm probably missing a couple.  It isn't a set route so if you're interested in going to another airport he is happy to do it but we just did his kind of standard tour since it was all new to me.

I would say you don't *need* mountain training to go to Denver, SLC, or Albuquerque if you just go around the mountains, but it was a great experience.   If you squint really hard you can see Leadville in my pic <---

[GMBrown]

A few more tips:

-  When you fly over the mountains at 2000 feet or better, cross ridges at a 45 degree angle if possible. this allows a shorter way out if there are adverse winds on the other side of the ridge.

- by all means take the lower ground to pass over, but stay above 2000 feet above the surrounding terrain since winds will still be present and lower ground will have more, focused, stronger winds.

-  stay well away from lenticular clouds since they indicate strong winds above the terrain.

- Be aware that in windy conditions, not only lenticular winds are a threat, but that the wind sets up waves that can affect you in clear air, miles downwind as the wind undulate on their way.

- as you cross the mountains be sensitive to what is happening on the other side of the ridge.  Is the granite on the other side of the ridge growing (you are staying above the terrain) or is the other side getting smaller (you're sinking in respect to altitude.)

- When flying up slope terrain, don't fly beyond the "point of no return".  I.e. the point beyond which, if the engine power is off, the plane can still turn around,

- corollary of the last point, always enter canyons on one side, not the middle.  This gives you more room to turn, and never fly so far up a canyon that you don't have enough room to turn back and escape down slope.

If you can find a copy of Sparky Imeson's excellent book "Mountain Flying Bible and Flight Operations Handbook" you will have the best source of info out there.

[N201MKTurbo]

For mountain wave turbulence, high pressure is your friend. Equate it with a river running deep. It will be smooth and calm at the same flow rate (wind). When pressure is low it is like the river running shallow with white water. 
 

With high pressure you can get a reasonable ride over a ridge at say 25 KTS. With low pressure you will get thrown around at 15 KTS.

Be cautious of high pressure over a high mountain valley. Air flows down out of those H’s on the weather map. They can pressurize the valleys and can cause wicked outflows from the passes out of the valley on an otherwise beautiful day.

[donkaye]

On 8/26/2022 at 2:19 PM, BravoWhiskey said:

I am considering a flight out West but would prefer not to do so until I get some mountain flying training.  My trip would include Denver, Salt Lake City and Albuquerque.  I would assume get to Denver and take a course there before heading on to SLC.  Any recommendations for a good course, school or instructor in the Greater Denver area?

I've taught the Mooney PPP Mountain Flying Class numerous times.  The NA airplanes would fly in the morning and the turbocharged airplanes would go in the afternoon.  Most of the time we operated out of Colorado Springs.  Except for Glenwood Springs and airports you would not take your Mooney, the runways were all 7,000 feet or longer.  Don't even consider Glenwood Springs in a Bravo.

I would take students to Salida (now KANK) and up the Arkansas Valley to Buena Vista (now KAEJ) and on into Leadville (KLXV).  Salida is interesting in that the runway landing East slopes downhill about 2°.  Not good to land that direction.  We'd fly the ridge up the valley.  The sun hitting the ridge heats it up and gives good lift.  I learned a lesson one time in leadville.  At a DA of around 13,000 feet the engine needs to be started with the mixture almost full out.  The air is thin with little cooling, so continually trying to start without waiting for the starter to cool down leads to----.  Taxiing needs to be done with the mixture almost all the way out.  Takeoffs are unusual in that you can't just put the mixture full and give it full power and takeoff.  The engine will immediately quit.  You need to hold the brakes and alternately push in the mixture a little bit then the throttle, then the mixture, then the throttle, until both are full in.  Then go. Edited: The above paragraph regarding leaning applies to TURBOCHARGED AIRPLANES only!  NA airplanes need to be leaned for takeoff at high DAs.

I'd then go to Aspen.  Aspen is really in the mountains.  We'd do the approach off of Red Table VOR.  It does have a VASI, but you will think you are high because the runway slopes up 2°.  All of that would take about 2 hours.  There are still other airports of interest in Colorado like Gunnison and Granby with a big hill on the approach to the West.  Most of the time the DAs in Colorado are above 9,000 feet in the summer.  Using the rule of thumb of 2% increase in TAS per thousand feet of DA, that means your GS on approach would be at least 18% faster than IAS.  So all patterns should be flown wide to avoid overshooting and approach speed should right on.  Otherwise, the possibility of bouncing is increased.

Having said all of that, my personal preference is to avoid the mountains when flying cross country.  I've flown cross country numerous times.  Depending on where you are going there are 3 ways to go; the northern route across Wyoming (the best way to get to Salt Lake City), the central route through the Monarch Pass, and the southern route through El Paso.  I prefer the northern or southern route depending on the time of year.  I have flown the central route, through Gunnison and Montrose along V244, but if you are going to do it, it should be done by 10:30 to the latest 11:00 in the morning in clear conditions.  Don't mess with the mountains with any convection.

As someone mentioned earlier, get up early and be done flying by noon.  Flying Wyoming is generally not a good experience in the afternoon and even in the morning there are times you'd rather not be in the air, as in our trip to Oshkosh this year.  The same goes for the southern route in the monsoon season.

I think it is more important to understand the weather in flying the mountains (and flying in general) than the mechanics of doing the flying.

This posting isn't meant to be an all encompassing lesson on Mountain Flying, but if my observations are followed, should lead to a safe cross country journey.

 

 

[N201MKTurbo]

3 minutes ago, donkaye said:

I've taught the Mooney PPP Mountain Flying Class numerous times.  The NA airplanes would fly in the morning and the turbocharged airplanes would go in the afternoon.  Most of the time we operated out of Colorado Springs.  Except for Glenwood Springs and airports you would not take your Mooney, the runways were all 7,000 feet or longer.  Don't even consider Glenwood Springs in a Bravo.

I would take students to Salida (now KANK) and up the Arkansas Valley to Buena Vista (now KAEJ) and on into Leadville (KLXV).  Salida is interesting in that the runway landing East slopes downhill about 2°.  Not good to land that direction.  We'd fly the ridge up the valley.  The sun hitting the ridge heats it up and gives good lift.  I learned a lesson one time in leadville.  At a DA of around 13,000 feet the engine needs to be started with the mixture almost full out.  The air is thin with little cooling, so continually trying to start without waiting for the starter to cool down leads to----.  Taxiing needs to be done with the mixture almost all the way out.  Takeoffs are unusual in that you can't just put the mixture full and give it full power and takeoff.  The engine will immediately quit.  You need to hold the brakes and alternately push in the mixture a little bit then the throttle, then the mixture, then the throttle, until both are full in.  Then go.

I'd then go to Aspen.  Aspen is really in the mountains.  We'd do the approach off of Red Table VOR.  It does have a VASI, but you will think you are high because the runway slopes up 2°.  All of that would take about 2 hours.  There are still other airports of interest in Colorado like Gunnison and Granby with a big hill on the approach to the West.  Most of the time the DAs in Colorado are above 9,000 feet in the summer.  Using the rule of thumb of 2% increase in TAS per thousand feet of DA, that means your GS on approach would be at least 18% faster than IAS.  So all patterns should be flown wide to avoid overshooting and approach speed should right on.  Otherwise, the possibility of bouncing is increased.

Having said all of that, my personal preference is to avoid the mountains when flying cross country.  I've flown cross country numerous times.  Depending on where you are going there are 3 ways to go; the northern route across Wyoming (the best way to get to Salt Lake City), the central route through the Monarch Pass, and the southern route through El Paso.  I prefer the northern or southern route depending on the time of year.  I have flown the central route, through Gunnison and Montrose along V244, but if you are going to do it, it should be done by 10:30 to the latest 11:00 in the morning in clear conditions.  Don't mess with the mountains with any convection.

As someone mentioned earlier, get up early and be done flying by noon.  Flying Wyoming is generally not a good experience in the afternoon and even in the morning there are times you'd rather not be in the air, as in our trip to Oshkosh this year.  The same goes for the southern route in the monsoon season.

I think it is more important to understand the weather in flying the mountains (and flying in general) than the mechanics of doing the flying.

This posting isn't meant to be an all encompassing lesson on Mountain Flying, but if my observations are followed, should lead to a safe cross country journey.

 

 

Humm, I just checked my logbook and I've landed at Glenwood Springs 14 times. Mostly in my NA M20F. The runway never seemed unusually short. Just cross the river at 70 KTS and touch down on the numbers, no problem. Just be careful in the canyon. To turn downwind, hug one side of the canyon before turning. If you Take off to the north, turn left at the Colorado River, to the south climb towards Carbondale until you clear the canyon.

[donkaye]

55 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Humm, I just checked my logbook and I've landed at Glenwood Springs 14 times. Mostly in my NA M20F. The runway never seemed unusually short. Just cross the river at 70 KTS and touch down on the numbers, no problem. Just be careful in the canyon. To turn downwind, hug one side of the canyon before turning. If you Take off to the north, turn left at the Colorado River, to the south climb towards Carbondale until you clear the canyon.

Glenwood Springs: ALT: 5,916 feet  RWY: 3,305x50  DA in the summer could exceed 9,000 feet.  By the charts for the Bravo:  Ground roll at 10,000 feet is 2,000 feet.  Assume a float of 500 feet at that altitude.  That means in perfect conditions 2,500 feet on a 3,300 foot runway.  Landing over a 50 foot obstacle is 3,750 feet by a factory test pilot in perfect conditions.  There's little (how about no) margin for error with the Bravo at Glenwood Springs.  I haven't, and will not be taking a Bravo in there.  I hope anyone with a Bravo who does, doesn't have USAIG, my insurance company.  The short bodies with much lighter gross weights, that's a different story.  Their issue is getting out.  Why take unnecessary risks when flying?  Fly the appropriate airplane for the circumstance.

[N201MKTurbo]

17 minutes ago, donkaye said:

Glenwood Springs: ALT: 5,916 feet  RWY: 3,305x50  DA in the summer could exceed 9,000 feet.  By the charts for the Bravo:  Ground roll at 10,000 feet is 2,000 feet.  Landing over a 50 foot obstacle is 3,750 feet by a factory test pilot in perfect conditions.  There's little (how about no) margin for error with the Bravo at Glenwood Springs.  I haven't, and will not be taking a Bravo in there.  I hope anyone with a Bravo who does, doesn't have USAIG, my insurance company.  The short bodies with much lighter gross weights, that's a different story.  Their issue is getting out.  Why take unnecessary risks when flying?  Fly the appropriate airplane for the circumstance.

Back in the day I had two customers in Glenwood Springs, a bank and the DEA. So I had to go there a few times a year. I’ve gone there skiing three times and white water rafting once. 
 

I was there once and a guy in a Baron comes up to me and asked me if it was safe to take off? We went through his POH and ran the charts. I said he had 1200 feet to spare. As long as both keep turning. He departed without incidence. There are no obstructions at either end of the runway.

[FoxMike]

I been in and out of Glenwood Springs in my Bravo several times.  Not the best place for learning mountain flying. The Bravo uses most of the runway as Don says so you need to have everything going right as their is almost no margin for error.  Many years ago the FBO in Glenwood had a Mooney M20F.  He landed a little short of the runway and rode the airplane down the cliff to the rivers edge.  He lived but I do not think we was not able to fly again. Demanding airport for Mooney Drivers.   

[hais]

If you do plan to fly in the valleys (as opposed to over the ridges at >2000 ft), then you should take a course. 

In my experience, the course taught me to (1) develop a feel for my limits: which Valley is too tight, which raising terrain to avoid, and (2) flight planning and creating escape check points to avoid turning into a canyon you can't escape. This also reinforces the need to fly with another pilot if you are unfamiliar with the valleys. 

It is beautiful!

Having said that, the course was useless to me because I decided to avoid canyons and fly well above the ridges in real life 

[ilovecornfields]

I flew with one of the local CFIs in Tahoe to learn the area and get some experience. He got so annoyed with everything screaming “Terrain Terrain Pull up” that he started pulling circuit breakers. It was pretty cool how the G500 shows you the path out of the canyon (assuming there is one).

I just fly 2000’ above the ridgetops now. Less exciting that way. 

[Hank]

On 8/30/2022 at 5:18 PM, hais said:

It is beautiful!

. . . I decided to avoid canyons and fly well above the ridges in real life 

 

On 8/30/2022 at 7:15 PM, ilovecornfields said:

I just fly 2000’ above the ridgetops now. Less exciting that way. 

There is wisdom here. As a new pilot and Mooney owner in WV, I always planned my trips for 2000' above the big number in the sectional squares, so 7500 msl or higher across southern WV into NC.

I'm all for beautiful scenery, but I don't much care for exciting flights. I prefer saving the excitement for between landing and departure.