What is TKS worth to you?

[Rotorhead]

Pretty simple discussion starter. How much do you think TKS (non-fiki) adds in value to a Mooney? Obviously not looking to get the near $70K it costs to install back, just curious what the market values it at these days. 

[carusoam]

Variable pricing…

1) Hot sunny days… not worth a dime…

2) Stuck above a cloud full of super cooled water droplets, and running low on fuel…. Worth more than a bank full of money…

3) Live east of a large body of water… PNW and Lake Erie come to mind…. Huge value during the cold months of the year….

4) Proper Forever-planes get updates like TKS systems and the latest color touchscreens… somebody looking to purchase a forever-plane is willing to pay for all of the updates…  but, now the number of planes and people are tiny in this area…  the laws of supply and demand are a bit un-normal here….  You only need one buyer.

5) People that use their planes to drive to work… have that desire for convenience…. Fiki is really nice.

 

Best negotiation technique…

Buy plane with it installed already… and have a competing plane with TKS installed right next to it…

Worst negotiation technique… Buy the plane first, then buy the system directly from the TKS people and have it installed….

 

Good luck finding two identical planes for sale with TKS…. 

Best financial planning… pay for the upgrade without knowing you will get any of its value back when selling it….

Worst financial planning… expect to get value back from an upgrade when selling many years down the line…

Logic… recession causes plane values to reach fire sale levels… try to avoid having to sell into a recession… or within years of the recession ending….

 

For the best pricing guides ever made… find Jimmy Garrison…

Lets invite @jgarrison to see if he can share some details… or how to get his guide…

Best regards,

-a-

[Rotorhead]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

Variable pricing…

1) Hot sunny days… not worth a dime…

2) Stuck above a cloud full of super cooled water droplets, and running low on fuel…. Worth more than a bank full of money…

3) Live east of a large body of water… PNW and Lake Erie come to mind…. Huge value during the cold months of the year….

4) Proper Forever-planes get updates like TKS systems and the latest color touchscreens… somebody looking to purchase a forever-plane is willing to pay for all of the updates…  but, now the number of planes and people are tiny in this area…  the laws of supply and demand are a bit un-normal here….  You only need one buyer.

5) People that use their planes to drive to work… have that desire for convenience…. Fiki is really nice.

 

Best negotiation technique…

Buy plane with it installed already… and have a competing plane with TKS installed right next to it…

Worst negotiation technique… Buy the plane first, then buy the system directly from the TKS people and have it installed….

 

Good luck finding two identical planes for sale with TKS…. 

Best financial planning… pay for the upgrade without knowing you will get any of its value back when selling it….

Worst financial planning… expect to get value back from an upgrade when selling many years down the line…

Logic… recession causes plane values to reach fire sale levels… try to avoid having to sell into a recession… or within years of the recession ending….

 

For the best pricing guides ever made… find Jimmy Garrison…

Lets invite @jgarrison to see if he can share some details… or how to get his guide…

Best regards,

-a-

Funny thing is you mention Jimmy since we spoke today actually. 

I ask the question because my J has TKS but go figure the guide doesn't give a value. I'm certainly not banking on TKS to make it worth a $200K plane, but curious minds wander...

Specially if TKS is worthwhile to someone else who may have some type of TN J or K that wants the TKS more so than "power".

[KLRDMD]

1 hour ago, Rotorhead said:

Pretty simple discussion starter. How much do you think TKS (non-fiki) adds in value to a Mooney? Obviously not looking to get the near $70K it costs to install back, just curious what the market values it at these days. 

It depends. I would buy an airplane with it (I have had a FIKI Mooney) but wouldn't pay a lot extra for it. But I live in Tucson. You could probably get an extra $20k for it . . . $25k from the right buyer, maybe.

[carusoam]

There are also some small hassles that go with the territory…

Not very big, when you use the system…. Lots of long X-countries in IMC….

But, an increasing pain if you don’t have a need for it… short flights scheduled on nice weather days….

The system needs to be exercised… more so than any other aviation system…

Best regards,

-a-

[glenn reynolds]

I fly a known ice tks ovation. I fly in the winter and I fly in Canada and cross country. I’d say that in those conditions the tks system increases the utility of my plane by fifty percent. If my ovation has a $200k value then is the value of tks $70k?   I would say it likely is. 

[thinwing]

when I was Mooney shopping I had a couple of strong must haves due to my flying mission frequently (like 90 %)involves mountanous western terrain,Turbo charging and some kind of ice equipment that my previous Baron lacked.Useful load was less of a concern because my flying was mostly wife and I.After 6 months search ,I finally found a low time Bravo with FIKI TKS with a recent crankreplacement and all topends replaced by lycoming that basically amounted to a factory overhaul.Besides the almost total reliabilty this plane has offered over the last 11 years...the ability to climb and descend over icing layers has made trip completion about 90% with cancellations only being caused by active weather fronts we no longer care to penetrate over high mountain terrain.We tested that a few times ,and the TKS performed well but a few trips in and out of cells for a 2 hour flight with the fluid supply down to last gallon or so upon landing made us put limits on these flights in the future.In short...it has proven its usefulness where I fly.We now have confidence in waiting for frontal passage and dealing with the scud we encounter on the back side of the front.So at most we delay our flights by hours ,not days.All due to the turbo and fiki.

[Cruiser]

I am making a very clear distinction between use and value. 
Because they are NOT FIKI, and as such, I cannot use them (legally) for trip planning, they add no value at all. 

If caught in un-forecast icing that I need to get out of or descend through for landing, they are invaluable.

[StevenL757]

18 hours ago, Rotorhead said:

Pretty simple discussion starter. How much do you think TKS (non-fiki) adds in value to a Mooney? Obviously not looking to get the near $70K it costs to install back, just curious what the market values it at these days. 

As @KLRDMD Ken pointed out, the $20-25k for an inadvertent system is about right.

Known-ice is around $35k, and probably $40k-$45k from a motivated buyer.

What's it worth to ME?  Priceless.  Probably one of the best tools on the airplane to aid in all-weather, all-season dispatchability.

[Fly Boomer]

18 hours ago, Rotorhead said:

How much do you think TKS (non-fiki) adds in value to a Mooney?

I don't have a number for you, but I can't think of a circumstance that would get me interested in an airplane without a turbocharger AND TKS.

[Rotorhead]

2 hours ago, thinwing said:

when I was Mooney shopping I had a couple of strong must haves due to my flying mission frequently (like 90 %)involves mountanous western terrain,Turbo charging and some kind of ice equipment that my previous Baron lacked.Useful load was less of a concern because my flying was mostly wife and I.After 6 months search ,I finally found a low time Bravo with FIKI TKS with a recent crankreplacement and all topends replaced by lycoming that basically amounted to a factory overhaul.Besides the almost total reliabilty this plane has offered over the last 11 years...the ability to climb and descend over icing layers has made trip completion about 90% with cancellations only being caused by active weather fronts we no longer care to penetrate over high mountain terrain.We tested that a few times ,and the TKS performed well but a few trips in and out of cells for a 2 hour flight with the fluid supply down to last gallon or so upon landing made us put limits on these flights in the future.In short...it has proven its usefulness where I fly.We now have confidence in waiting for frontal passage and dealing with the scud we encounter on the back side of the front.So at most we delay our flights by hours ,not days.All due to the turbo and fiki.

@thinwing sounds about the same as how my mission was in North Dakota. Mountains were only an issue about 10% of the time but having non-Fiki TKS gave great insurance when needed. Now I’m down in Albuquerque NM where mountains are 90% of the time and icing around 10%. Really want to nab a turbo but I have a feeling I’ll really miss the TKS that other 10%.

 

[Bolter]

You must also consider value vs market appeal.  For many people, TKS just means loss of useful load and would consider it an outright negative.  Only some people will buy a plane with TKS, and within that group, some would only get a FIKI version (like me).  Since that limits the pool of buyers, you must expect that the payback on the TKS will go down quite a bit.  Perhaps the avionics model applies, in that you get a fraction of the install cost back on resale?

-dan

[jgarrison]

On 7/28/2022 at 9:07 PM, Rotorhead said:

Pretty simple discussion starter. How much do you think TKS (non-fiki) adds in value to a Mooney? Obviously not looking to get the near $70K it costs to install back, just curious what the market values it at these days. 

On an Ovation, non-FIKI TKS will add anywhere from $10,000 to $15,000. Someone wanting TKS will value it higher. If is for a desert SW destination, it could actually be a negative due to speed loss and maintenance/upkeep. Pac NW, Great Lakes and New England/East Coast buyers value it more than others.

[FlyingScot]

Flying in FL in the summer...not much.

Flying IFR in the Great Lakes in the winter with Icing Sigmets covering the top half of the country...priceless. 

[Mufflerbearing]

When it came down to buying a plane for me, I didn't and wouldn't look at a plane without FIKI.  It was the right choice for me, I paid more for it for a comparable non TKS plane and I use it all of the time.  

[ilovecornfields]

11 hours ago, jgarrison said:

On an Ovation, non-FIKI TKS will add anywhere from $10,000 to $15,000. Someone wanting TKS will value it higher. If is for a desert SW destination, it could actually be a negative due to speed loss and maintenance/upkeep. Pac NW, Great Lakes and New England/East Coast buyers value it more than others.

I guess it all depends on the buyer but I’ve picked up ice in the desert too. I think once you’ve had it you never want a plane without it.

[Fly Boomer]

On 8/3/2022 at 11:54 AM, jgarrison said:

On an Ovation, non-FIKI TKS will add anywhere from $10,000 to $15,000.

How much to add it to an airplane without ice protection?

[LANCECASPER]

It’s a little bit like asking what a swimming pool adds in value to a house. If you’re looking for a house with a swimming pool it might be worth something to you. But it does take people out of the market that aren’t looking for a house with a swimming pool, in fact wouldn’t have a swimming pool. So in that sense it actually could take away from the value. Plus you lose a few knots all year around. To put it simply, it’s easier to sell a TKS airplane up North, especially in the fall and winter, and easier to sell an air-conditioned airplane in the South, especially in the Spring and Summer. Vref values TKS when you install it new at $47,500 and at 5 years it’s worth half of that and continues to decline. Same depreciation with Air Conditioning or any other add-on. It sort of makes sense since an older installation of any complex add-on will require money in maintenance so wouldn’t be worth as much as one that’s newly installed.

[LANCECASPER]

58 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

How much to add it to an airplane without ice protection?

$70,000

[LANCECASPER]

20 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

but I’ve picked up ice in the desert too

I think that was a mirage, and I’m not talking Piper 

[Fly Boomer]

12 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

$70,000

I know that you can't get your money back, but 70k down to 10k seems like a lot of overnight depreciation.

[Austintatious]

I would be all for TKS if not for the hit in speed.  Or if I lived and flew somewhere where Ice is unavoidable. 

I just try to stay out of it and if I get into it I get out ASAP.  If I know there will be ice that I cant avoid or rather will be difficult to avoid, I just dont go.  Simple.  I dont ever fly my mooney in a "have to go" mindset.

[larryb]

When I bought my Encore there was another almost-identical Encore, but without TKS for basically the same price. So in that instance, the TKS was basically free. Every airplane is so unique now days it's kind of hard to compare. On average I would think it would add something but not a lot, since a lot of people would not buy a plane with TKS.

 

[shawnd]

On 7/28/2022 at 7:34 PM, carusoam said:

Variable pricing…

3) Live east of a large body of water… PNW and Lake Erie come to mind…. Huge value during the cold months of the year….

 

As @carusoam points out, the valley between Olympia (KOLM) and Portland area (KPDX) is an ice factory during winter, which here in the Pacific Northwest starts at about Sept . Mine didn't have TKS, but if there was one available on a 252 when I was shopping, I would have paid $40K extra easily for it. Being able to utilize the useful load is the motivation rather than being on the ground. 

[carusoam]

8 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

I know that you can't get your money back, but 70k down to 10k seems like a lot of overnight depreciation.

Kind of like buying a brand new plane or car…

+1 it’s not valuable to everyone…

-1 it has some aspects that are considered more of a negative by some…

Much more wallet friendly when buying the plane with FIKI already attached!  

Buy it for its current value… not for its resale value…

Best regards,

-a-