maintenance logs

[roman78J]

What can one do when one's maintenance logs are lost?

[carusoam]

That is called rebuilding lost logs…

In olden times… this was a disaster.

In modern times… It might not be so bad…. Depending on records taken during any OH activity…

There are a few discussions on it being done around here…

Best regards,

-a-

[EricJ]

You need AD compliance info, so somehow verify that all ADs have been complied with if you no longer have that record.   If you know who did recent annual inspections you can ask them if they have electronic copies of those.    You also need records of any installed STCs, which can be figuring out what is installed and getting permission letters, etc.

You also need to know (or estimate, and I think there is AC guidance on how to do this), the total time on the airframe.

For the logbooks themselves you only need records going back a year.   Getting a fresh annual inspection covers a lot of ground.

[Fly Boomer]

2 hours ago, roman78J said:

What can one do when one's maintenance logs are lost?

Start by requesting all information kept by the FAA (assuming US reg).  They will send a CD for a few bucks with all the 337s they have, and other info.  Next, make a promise to yourself that you will never hand your (reconstructed) physical logs to anyone.  That's why we have stickies.

[mhrivnak]

Getting a copy of the FAA's records on the airframe can fill in some gaps, especially for STCs and 337s.

https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/aircraft_registry/copies_aircraft_records/

[A64Pilot]

How were they lost?

 Is there any change of finding them? It’s a pretty big hit on aircraft value if they can’t be found.

This is a photo of the logbook entry of my little Cessna. Must have been a school airplane I think to fly 2,000 hours in 6 years.

Just saying it happens, but likely the rules have changed since 1952 so don’t use this as an example 

Paragraph 12 of this AC speaks to lost records  https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_43-9C_CHG_2.pdf

Edited June 8, 2022 by A64Pilot

[LANCECASPER]

A good reason to keep scanned logs in the cloud and keep them updated.

[PeteMc]

If you have been using the same shop for a while, there's a good chance you'll be able to recover a lot of the info.  Hopefully enough that would will make it a non issue if/when you go to sell the plane.  

Even if  you've been using a couple of shops, there is a good chance they have a maintenance record in their system and possibly even copies of all the log entries if they print stickers. Some may have basically a duplicate of your maintenance logs in their system. 

Let us know what your A&P tells you when you talk to them.  Hoping never to go through this, but would like to know the outcome.  I'm guessing there may be and "official" FAA way to do this, but if you can collect various Invoices, Work Orders, Logbook Sticker entries, etc., then I'd assume the A&P just makes an entry in the new book that they attest that the attached materials is a good representation of the lost log entries and that the plane is Airworthy and all ADs have been complied with as of xx/xx/22.

 

[Guest]

I’m amazed at how often this subject comes up.  Who is loosing these logs? Owners or maintainers?

Clarence

[EricJ]

3 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

I’m amazed at how often this subject comes up.  Who is loosing these logs? Owners or maintainers?

Clarence

The ones I've seen have been something like a sheriff's auction (like a repo or a seizure), or an estate sale where the family has the airplane but can't find the records.   It does seem to happen a lot.

[201er]

11 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I’m amazed at how often this subject comes up.  Who is loosing these logs? Owners or maintainers?

Clarence

Seems like they conveniently “go missing” when an airplane’s for sale and may have loads of damage history.

On the other hand there’s a lot of hangar queens getting sold by widows and they wouldn’t have a clue about finding logbooks and anything that isn’t bolted on the plane.

[N201MKTurbo]

^{It makes a good case for filing more 337s instead of just making a logbook entry. The 337 can always be retrieved from the FAA.}

Edited June 9, 2022 by N201MKTurbo

[A64Pilot]

14 hours ago, PeteMc said:

If you have been using the same shop for a while, there's a good chance you'll be able to recover a lot of the info.  Hopefully enough that would will make it a non issue if/when you go to sell the plane.  

Even if  you've been using a couple of shops, there is a good chance they have a maintenance record in their system and possibly even copies of all the log entries if they print stickers. Some may have basically a duplicate of your maintenance logs in their system. 

Let us know what your A&P tells you when you talk to them.  Hoping never to go through this, but would like to know the outcome.  I'm guessing there may be and "official" FAA way to do this, but if you can collect various Invoices, Work Orders, Logbook Sticker entries, etc., then I'd assume the A&P just makes an entry in the new book that they attest that the attached materials is a good representation of the lost log entries and that the plane is Airworthy and all ADs have been complied with as of xx/xx/22.

 

From what I gathered from that AC you essentially have it correct.

However I’d bet if you had copies, even if just photos on your phone and your paper copies went missing you could re-create them without having to make that logbook missing / destroyed entry. The signatures may be a problem though.

Many want to go all electronic, but there are issues with that, like signatures and yes I’ve “electronically” signed many legal documents but it’s not me who needs to be convinced it’s the FAA.

I keep seeing never give the IA your logbook, but how can they research AD’s etc without it.

Any IA ought to have a fireproof safe for logbooks, if he or she doesn’t maybe find a different IA or don’t leave your books, tossed into the desk drawer isn’t secure enough for me.

 

[N201MKTurbo]

1 minute ago, A64Pilot said:

like signatures and yes I’ve “electronically” signed many legal documents but it’s not me who needs to be convinced it’s the FAA.

Every document I've gotten from the FAA in the last few years was electronically signed. They must be good with it.

[A64Pilot]

40 minutes ago, 201er said:

Seems like they conveniently “go missing” when an airplane’s for sale and may have loads of damage history.

On the other hand there’s a lot of hangar queens getting sold by widows and they wouldn’t have a clue about finding logbooks and anything that isn’t bolted on the plane.

I’ve seen pages be removed from logbooks that had entries the seller wanted to hide, the counter to that is most often “real” damage gets a 337, not always but usually.

337’s should be on file in Oak City, so make the purchase be closed based on the 337 CD review from Oak City.

[A64Pilot]

11 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Every document I've gotten from the FAA in the last few years was electronically signed. They must be good with it.

Read that AC I linked to earlier. When I got my IA back due to covid we couldn’t meet in person, so we had Zoom meetings where they witnessed my signature and I mailed each copy to them, they signed and mailed it back. Added weeks to the process

It’s paragraph 13, if I were to go that route I’d want signed confirmation from the FAA inspector, because many times I’ve had them disagree. So be careful.

I cut-n-pasted it 

13. COMPUTERIZED RECORDS. There is a growing trend toward computerized maintenance records. Many of these systems are offered to owners/operators on a commercial basis. While these are excellent scheduling systems, alone they normally do not meet the requirements of § 43.9 or § 91.417. The owner/operator who uses such a system is required to ensure that it provides the information required by § 91.417, including signatures. If not, modification to make them complete is the owner’s/operator’s responsibility and that responsibility may not be delegated.
 

On edit that’s an Advisory Circular, not a regulation, but I’ve only rarely had the FAA allow me to not follow an AC, they tend to treat them as Regulations

Edited June 9, 2022 by A64Pilot

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

Read that AC I linked to earlier. When I got my IA back due to covid we couldn’t meet in person, so we had Zoom meetings where they witnessed my signature and I mailed each copy to them, they signed and mailed it back. Added weeks to the process

It’s paragraph 13, if I were to go that route I’d want signed confirmation from the FAA inspector, because many times I’ve had them disagree. So be careful.

I cut-n-pasted it 

13. COMPUTERIZED RECORDS. There is a growing trend toward computerized maintenance records. Many of these systems are offered to owners/operators on a commercial basis. While these are excellent scheduling systems, alone they normally do not meet the requirements of § 43.9 or § 91.417. The owner/operator who uses such a system is required to ensure that it provides the information required by § 91.417, including signatures. If not, modification to make them complete is the owner’s/operator’s responsibility and that responsibility may not be delegated.
 

On edit that’s an Advisory Circular, not a regulation, but I’ve only rarely had the FAA allow me to not follow an AC, they tend to treat them as Regulations

When I renewed last year, I submitted my activity log through IACRA and received my electronically signed authorization letter through IACRA.

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Every document I've gotten from the FAA in the last few years was electronically signed. They must be good with it.

Electronic signatures are covered by federal law, so they have to be accepted the same as a handwritten signature by anybody.   So, yeah, the FAA is good with it. 

[PeteMc]

26 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Electronic signatures are covered by federal law,

Even the IRS will take an electronic signature.  So you KNOW the Feds are good with it!! 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2022 by PeteMc

[A64Pilot]

Did you guys even bother to read the AC? All I’m saying is that in my opinion that whatever method you use to obtain an electronic signature you get written approval. That way years later if it becomes an issue you can present the approval.

Define electronic signature, I can’t but bought a house signing electronically a car etc., but that 

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

When I renewed last year, I submitted my activity log through IACRA and received my electronically signed authorization letter through IACRA.

I would have expected that too, but for some reason they required the witnessing of my signature and then I had to mail the original to her. 8610 etc, even my little yellow card.

But that may be my FSDO, your’s may be different, you would expect standardization, but there isn’t really, and that’s my point, whatever method you use for electronic signature I’d want written approval.

I had no idea until I looked it up but there are three types of electronic signature. I have no idea how to set up a electronic signature. All I’m saying is get your method approved before hand so years later your not arguing with an inspector is all. If you have approval it won’t be an issue, that is how I read that AC. It said  that most software packages don’t meet FAA requirements.

A simple statement of I FAA inspector have reviewed so and so’s electronic records system and find it supplies the information required by 91.417, unless of course someone sells a software package that’s FAA approved, if so and that’s what your using you should be fine.

https://www.docusign.com/blog/developers/docusign-esignature-types

[A64Pilot]

Oh, and I hope I get to use IACRA, Atl FSDO used to require an Appt and me traveling to them, or you could attend the seminar given by the GBAA and FSDO showed up at the end to take your paperwork and stamped your yellow card, either way you were going to Atl and meeting face to face

Edited June 9, 2022 by A64Pilot

[mhrivnak]

There is AC 120-78A that describes what the FAA requires and accepts for electronic signatures. And there are vendors such as PLANELOGIX that offer compliant digital maintenance log services.

[A64Pilot]

16 minutes ago, mhrivnak said:

There is AC 120-78A that describes what the FAA requires and accepts for electronic signatures. And there are vendors such as PLANELOGIX that offer compliant digital maintenance log services.

Good, thank you. 

The AC I linked to is dated 2018, the one you linked two is dated 2016.

You would think the later one would reference the one two years older, the FAA is often very contradictory like that

[Fly Boomer]

5 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

I keep seeing never give the IA your logbook, but how can they research AD’s etc without it.

I maintain a digital scanned likeness of every page in every log including all the crap that was stapled in or just stuck between pages.  Major investment in time to get there, but easy to maintain.  Unless Google burns down, my locked filing cabinet blows up, and all my backup drives are wiped by a massive EMP event, I will have the records.  If an IA wants to see it, I can provide as much as they can stand.  Belt and suspenders.

[A64Pilot]

48 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

I maintain a digital scanned likeness of every page in every log including all the crap that was stapled in or just stuck between pages.  Major investment in time to get there, but easy to maintain.  Unless Google burns down, my locked filing cabinet blows up, and all my backup drives are wiped by a massive EMP event, I will have the records.  If an IA wants to see it, I can provide as much as they can stand.  Belt and suspenders.

That’s probably smart, I probably should but  the older I get the stupider I become with electronics. I used to be computer savvy believe it or not, but I think because I just don’t use one anymore I’ve lost the skills. I just have the paper logbooks. I’m on an Ipad now, I don’t use a computer for much of anything amymore.

I struggle getting the darn stickies to print anymore. I don’t hand write my logbooks because I write like a Dr.

But with the kind of money we are talking about it’s smart to keep a backup copy