T/O FLAP SETTING FOR LANDING ?

[Yetti]

2 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Don’t know why everyone still talks in units of mph…the standard in aviation (since 1969) is knots.
Does it make you feel like you’re going faster? ;-)

because that is how the manual is written in MPH.

The manual also says no turns in the pattern under 90mph unless you have flaps out.

The flaps don't do alot to stall speed in a Mooney.   Can't add my chart because no pictures.

 

No flaps for take off unless short field

Flaps are added to get down if the approach is high or short.

otherwise you should have the ability to fly it on at 90mph with no bounce.

 

[Shadrach]

7 hours ago, DCarlton said:

At your numbers, is the stall warning horn chirping off and on the whole way and even more so when it's gusty?  

If I get a chirp as I start the round out, I know I've managed my energy well.  As for on final, no chirps in smooth air when approacing at 1.2 X calculated Vso.  All bets are off in the bumps.  If you fly in anything but perfect weather, occasional chirps from the horn must be accepted. I've gotten chirps while cruising at maneuvering speed.

 

 

[N201MKTurbo]

When you use less than full flaps, You need a much higher pitch attitude on final. Maybe that's why you feel tail heavy.

[Fly Boomer]

2 minutes ago, Yetti said:

Can't add my chart because no pictures.

Donate $20.  I think it jumps your upload quota quite a bit.

[Shadrach]

2 minutes ago, Yetti said:

because that is how the manual is written in MPH.

The manual also says no turns in the pattern under 90mph unless you have flaps out.

The flaps don't do alot to stall speed in a Mooney.   Can't add my chart because no pictures.

 

No flaps for take off unless short field

Flaps are added to get down if the approach is high or short.

otherwise you should have the ability to fly it on at 90mph with no bounce.

 

You should specify that these are your personal opinions lest someone mistake them good airmanship.

[Shadrach]

52 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

When you use less than full flaps, You need a much higher pitch attitude on final. Maybe that's why you feel tail heavy.

Indeed...

So few Mooney pilots understand that deploying flaps both increase the effective angle of incidence as well as moves the center of pressure aft.  Both serve to make for better vis on approach and better vis at high AOA in the flare.  I think many of those pilots are flying the plane on so the high pitch angle never occur because the flare is...well not much of a flare. Everything the flaps do contributes to better handling during landing.

[DCarlton]

9 minutes ago, Yetti said:

because that is how the manual is written in MPH.

The manual also says no turns in the pattern under 90mph unless you have flaps out.

The flaps don't do alot to stall speed in a Mooney.   Can't add my chart because no pictures.

 

No flaps for take off unless short field

Flaps are added to get down if the approach is high or short.

otherwise you should have the ability to fly it on at 90mph with no bounce.

 

I've always found higher speed landings with no flaps to be easier but I try to keep my runway speeds down unless it's necessary (very gusty conditions, higher density alt, etc).  My airplane can get pretty darty at higher rolling speeds if you're not gentle on the pedals.  Totally agree with no turns under 90 mph without flaps.  

[Hank]

22 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Don’t know why everyone still talks in units of mph…the standard in aviation (since 1969) is knots.
Does it make you feel like you’re going faster? ;-)

Because that is what's on my 1970 Owners Manual and my airspeed indicator. The OP here has a 1967 F . . .

[DCarlton]

4 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Indeed...

So few Mooney pilots understand that deploying flaps both increase the effective angle of incidence as well as moves the center of pressure aft.  Both serve to make for better vis on approach and better vis at high AOA in the flare.  I think many of those pilots are flying the plane on so the high pitch angle never occur because the flare well not much of a flare. Everything the flaps do contributes to better handling during landing.

So many questions...  for the folks that consistently use full flaps landing, when do you deploy full flaps on an IFR approach?  Are you stabilized with full flaps way out at final approach fix (with a little extra power to compensate)?  Appreciate everyone's input.  Thanks.  

[Hank]

35 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

Based on the responses, I think I'll try to work on reducing my numbers by 5 mph.  That's gets me back to the speeds I used to fly (although it did seem somewhat tail heavy and draggy at those speeds).  Sounds like I need to work on full flap landings too.  

At low speeds, it will be draggy and a little mushy. If it's tail heavy, spin the trim wheel! You should be hands-off on final, coming right down the glideslope / VASI / PAPI / visual to your intended point of landing. With my left hand in my lap and right hand on the quadrant, she doesn't feel nose- or tail-heavy.

[DCarlton]

Just now, Hank said:

At low speeds, it will be draggy and a little mushy. If it's tail heavy, spin the trim wheel! You should be hands-off on final, coming right down the glideslope / VASI / PAPI / visual to your intended point of landing. With my left hand in my lap and right hand on the quadrant, she doesn't feel nose- or tail-heavy.

I'm good about trimming but I'm definitely going to work on adding more flaps to get the nose down... and work on getting the speeds down about 5 mph.  

[Shadrach]

1 minute ago, DCarlton said:

So many questions...  for the folks that consistently use full flaps landing, when do you deploy full flaps on an IFR approach?  Are you stabilized with full flaps way out at final approach fix (with a little extra power to compensate)?  Appreciate everyone's input.  Thanks.  

Depends.  In most cases, I configure when I begin the descent.   IIRC, just gear and flaps up means constantly flirting with the RPM restriction while on an ILS.  I find that I can better stay out of the caution RPM range with partial flaps and gear.  If you're on an instrument approach to minimums, probably best to compromise and land in whatever configuration you used for the approach.  

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, DCarlton said:

I'm good about trimming but I'm definitely going to work on adding more flaps to get the nose down... and work on getting the speeds down about 5 mph.  

Tail gets lighter, not heavier with full flaps in my plane.

Edit:  I should not have said lighter. Control feel does not change. Pitch angle is decreases with each pump of flaps requiring additional nose up trim.

[201er]

21 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

So many questions...  for the folks that consistently use full flaps landing, when do you deploy full flaps on an IFR approach?  Are you stabilized with full flaps way out at final approach fix (with a little extra power to compensate)?  

Gear down and takeoff flaps at the FAF, full flaps on short final much like on a visual approach. 

[GeeBee]

There is one landing where you absolutely not use full flaps. That is if you are carrying any ice.

 

[haymak3r]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

Don’t know why everyone still talks in units of mph…the standard in aviation (since 1969) is knots.
Does it make you feel like you’re going faster? ;-)

True, but my 79's asi has mph on the outer ring, and is just easier to read to me, and my poh listed the airspeed limits in IAS/CAS MPH. And so I memorized those numbers. Plus.. It makes you feel like you're going faster?  

[DCarlton]

9 minutes ago, haymak3r said:

True, but my 79's asi has mph on the outer ring, and is just easier to read to me, and my poh listed the airspeed limits in IAS/CAS MPH. And so I memorized those numbers. Plus.. It makes you feel like you're going faster?  

That's another one of the reasons I stick to mph too.  My ASI's mph scale is much easier to read.  I didn't want to change and start mixing things up.  

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, DCarlton said:

So many questions...  for the folks that consistently use full flaps landing, when do you deploy full flaps on an IFR approach?  Are you stabilized with full flaps way out at final approach fix (with a little extra power to compensate)?  Appreciate everyone's input.  Thanks.  

Approach flaps (half) and gear down at the beginning of the glidepath/glideslope descent, full flaps as needed on short final.    Most fields with approaches have reasonably long runways to make it not a critical thing, so skipping the change to full flaps isn't a tragedy if needed.

[N201MKTurbo]

51 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

There is one landing where you absolutely not use full flaps. That is if you are carrying any ice.

 

That is true with a Cessna. I’m not sure about the Mooney.

I was doing an IFR training flight in a Cessna Cutlass RG back in 84. Well I actually had to get to KRAP for work and I didn’t have an instrument rating so I conned an instructor to go with me. I had read that you shouldn’t use flaps in a Cessna if iced because it will change the airflow over the tail and cause a tail stall. On the approach we picked up about 1 1/2 inches of clear ice. When we broke out the instructor went to put the flaps down and I insisted he doesn’t. He said we needed the lift because of the ice. I convinced him to wait till I was in the flare. I was going about 120 KTS because of the ice and was about two feet above the runway. We put the flaps down and I continued to decelerate. At about 90 KTS the nose slammed into the pavement. Luckily, we didn’t bend anything. The tail did stall.

That being said, I have landed the Mooney with a inch of rime with full flaps with no issue. I did the same thing approaching at high speed and decelerating over the runway. It landed normally.

[StevenL757]

3 hours ago, DCarlton said:

For the aeronautical lift to drag gurus out there...  curious about something...  after years of M20F ownership but not enough recent flying, I'm bouncing a little more than I'm proud of landing.  I often use two pumps of the hydraulic flaps when landing (sometimes three; rarely max).  Two is approximately the TAKEOFF flap setting.  I'm guessing the takeoff setting provides some optimum point on a lift to drag curve which optimizes getting you off the ground.  If so, could the takeoff setting be the worst choice for a landing flap setting if you want to stick it?  

Quite simply - airspeed control.  There's no magic formula here.

Mooney airframes will "tell" you when they no longer want to fly...period.  Should you learn to land the airplane in every flap position?  Absolutely.  Learning the airplane at the bottom of the envelope is a necessity in my opinion for proper transition into the airplane.

As a general rule, for every one (1) knot over landing ref, increase your landing distance by approximately 100 feet.  Carrying 10kts extra?  Do the math.  That's IF you make it to the ground without a prop strike.

Edited June 7, 2022 by StevenL757

[amillet]

3 hours ago, DCarlton said:

Could be.  I had an instructor grind my ass about being too slow on final during my last BFR.  He wanted me consistently at 90 mph, then slower over the threshold.  When he demonstrated his recommended technique, his landings were outstanding, so I'm trying it.  If I were to use 1.2 VSO, that would be 1.2 (68) or 82 mph which seems way to slow on final.  I would be pulling myself out of a hole and dragging in the whole way with the stall warning chirping.  1.3 VSO seems to be about right or 88 mph.  

Sign up for a MAPA PPP and learn to land correctly. It counts as a flight review also

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, DCarlton said:

At your numbers, is the stall warning horn chirping off and on the whole way and even more so when it's gusty?  

30 sec clip at BQ1 Carthage NC (good BBQ before they burned down)  is an example of a an approach flown at 1.2Vso with speed reduced on short final. Stall horn was only present for s brief second on final and then again crossing threshold and into the flare.   It was not especially windy but it was bumpy and unseasonably warm.  Larger than normal pattern due to NORDO traffic and it being my first time landing there. We weighed about 2350lbs. I slowed to probably 70 on short final and 65 as I approached the threshold.  Not a particularly great landing, but notice how little nose up pitch is required for a full stall landing. Not a long nor a short strip at 2500' but full flaps and on speed meant we had lots of margin...did not use the brakes at all.

The right seater filming is a Comanche owner friend of mine who said "not an issue".  Apparently he was not so sure until touchdown...

 

 

 

[Yetti]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

You should specify that these are your personal opinions lest someone mistake them good airmanship.

Possibly, but my Mooney instructor with a 2000 hour F-18 flight patch on his jacket taught me to land.  So you are welcome to take it up with him airmanship wise of course    Besides I am just here for the popcorn.   Lastly I will say go spend some time at 21MP and 2100 RPM the plane is a very different feeling airplane at the slower speeds and it mimics the controls and inputs that occur while landing.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Yetti

[Shadrach]

27 minutes ago, Yetti said:

Possibly, but my Mooney instructor with a 2000 hour F-18 flight patch on his jacket taught me to land.  So you are welcome to take it up with him airmanship wise of course    Besides I am just here for the popcorn.   Lastly I will say go spend some time at 21MP and 2100 RPM the plane is a very different feeling airplane at the slower speeds and it mimics the controls and inputs that occur while landing.

No offense, it’s not particularly persuasive when someone uses an appeal to authority/credentials rather than making a good argument. It’s even less so when someone makes a third party appeal to someone else’s authority/credentials without making a good argument. I’m certain almost anyone here can touchdown at 90mph if needed. It’s not difficult to fly a plane onto the runway at 1.7 Vso, but it’s poor airmanship under most circumstances.

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

That is true with a Cessna. I’m not sure about the Mooney.

I was doing an IFR training flight in a Cessna Cutlass RG back in 84. Well I actually had to get to KRAP for work and I didn’t have an instrument rating so I conned an instructor to go with me. I had read that you shouldn’t use flaps in a Cessna if iced because it will change the airflow over the tail and cause a tail stall. On the approach we picked up about 1 1/2 inches of clear ice. When we broke out the instructor went to put the flaps down and I insisted he doesn’t. He said we needed the lift because of the ice. I convinced him to wait till I was in the flare. I was going about 120 KTS because of the ice and was about two feet above the runway. We put the flaps down and I continued to decelerate. At about 90 KTS the nose slammed into the pavement. Luckily, we didn’t bend anything. The tail did stall.

That being said, I have landed the Mooney with a inch of rime with full flaps with no issue. I did the same thing approaching at high speed and decelerating over the runway. It landed normally.

I think it matters how much ice the tail has, which might be difficult to assess.   I wouldn't count on a tail not stalling by flap addition, and someplace like KRAP has enough runway to land at 120 kts and it not be a problem.   

Good to know that the Mooney is at least not inherently evil in these conditions, though.