How do you go around in a Mooney?

[aviatoreb]

16 hours ago, jetdriven said:

That Lake Placid accident sounds a lot like a distracted pilot who has a sloppy go around and then tried to avoid another airplane coming from the other direction.

if you don’t trim the airplane full nose up, the go-around control forces are easy to manage on a mid body Mooney. If you like to get into the flare and hold the trim till it hits the up stop it makes a nice landing as well, but it’s bad technique and then people are advocating for more bad technique to compensate for this bad technique. 

Definitely distracted but I want to point more so at a new to Mooney pilot who may have learned bad habits in more forgiving general trainers like 172 that then are more likely to bite you in the Mooney or any other high performance airplane.  I could see a transition training neglecting to ask to demonstrate a go around with too much trim.  To drive home that it is a bad idea.  I could see a primary training in a 172 to teach full up trim on landing.  Not good - but I could see two deficient training background having been part of this accident.

I for one do not trim full back.  I do trim for hands off glide slope which amounts to maybe half up trim.  Well with the rockets power if I do go around with full power, it does want to pitch up more than you would want and I need to be at the ready to push the yoke with some real force while trimming off the up pitch to something good.  But as I have said, also I push in the power a bit gradually rather than jam it in, since again smoothness there really helps the whole process.

[aviatoreb]

50 minutes ago, Cruiser said:

All of this good advice points to a single issue that most pilots fail on..... PRACTICE. 
These kind of accidents are much less likely if pilots stay proficient in emergency procedures. 

 

Indeed - but Ill add - practice smart - meaning a person could practice all day long every and yet neglect to ever practice certain important things, like in this case, a go around with proper power and pitch management.  Many people who practice just practice the same narrow routine every time.  E.g. I know people who just fly the pattern and do touch and goes and that's it - that being say 50-75% of their flying and the other rest of it flying to the $100 hamburger.  Certainly that keeps the manual skills of normal operations in good shape but maybe not so much certain emergency procedures or other activities that you might not normally run into like what happens if you pitch up too much.

Edited April 18, 2022 by aviatoreb

[Shadrach]

On 4/16/2022 at 2:14 PM, A64Pilot said:

‘I’m sure you guys with 300 or more HP would consider mine a dog, even cleaned up, much less dirty.

If you run real world numbers, the power/weight ratio delta between a typically loaded 4cyl Short or mid body vs a 6 cylinder long body is not as great as you might think. I’ve had a Bravo owner in the right seat of my plane that questioned the accuracy of the VSI until he verified ROC with GPS. I think his testes retracted a bit after coming to the conclusion that at least on that day as loaded, a 200hp 4cyl would take off in less runway and out climb his turbo to ~5k. Part of the reason is that cooling is not an issue in my F so I almost never need to lower the nose below Vy unless I want to cruise climb.

Comparison F to M model

empty weight:

F model 1681lbs
M model 2353lbs

Fuel for 400nm + reserves:

F model 210lbs

M model 300lbs

pilot 200lbs

Power to weight ratio:

F model .09564

M model .09814

Not a staggering difference…

 

 

 

 

Edited April 18, 2022 by Shadrach

[aviatoreb]

48 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

If you run real world numbers, the power/weight ratio delta between a typically loaded 4cyl Short or mid body vs a 6 cylinder long body is not as great as you might think. I’ve had a Bravo owner in the right seat of my plane that questioned the accuracy of the VSI until he verified ROC with GPS. I think his testes retracted a bit after coming to the conclusion that at least on that day as loaded, a 200hp 4cyl would take off in less runway and out climb his turbo to ~5k. Part of the reason is that cooling is not an issue in my F so I almost never need to lower the nose below Vy unless I want to cruise climb.

Comparison F to M model

empty weight:

F model 1681lbs
M model 2353lbs

Fuel for 400nm + reserves:

F model 210lbs

M model 300lbs

pilot 200lbs

Power to weight ratio:

F model .09564

M model .09814

Not a staggering difference…

 

 

 

 

I don't understand why, but something about the Bravo's despite the big engine, it doesn't climb like I would guess.  I have been in two different Bravo's and clearly they have great speed but while reasonable climb, less than I would think coming my from my usual experience in my rocket which climbs not just a little better but much much better.  I would think they would be closer.

[Shadrach]

2 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I don't understand why, but something about the Bravo's despite the big engine, it doesn't climb like I would guess.  I have been in two different Bravo's and clearly they have great speed but while reasonable climb, less than I would think coming my from my usual experience in my rocket which climbs not just a little better but much much better.  I would think they would be closer.

The Rocket and Missile are in a class of their own.

My limited experience with the Bravo matches yours. It climbs well enough to be considered high performance but I expected more. A lightly loaded F model like mine will start at 1400-1600fpm in the cooler months. This past winter I did a time to climb from 1000msl to 10,000msl and managed >1100fpm average. It was cold and just me with 3hours fuel. Nevertheless, not many 200hp, 4plc certified singles will do that.

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

The Rocket and Missile are in a class of their own.

My limited experience with the Bravo matches yours. It climbs well enough to be considered high performance but I expected more. A lightly loaded F model like mine will start at 1400-1600fpm in the cooler months. This past winter I did a time to climb from 1000msl to 10,000msl and managed >1100fpm average. It was cold and just me with 3hours fuel. Nevertheless, not many 200hp, 4plc certified singles will do that.

Wow - that's better than I would have guessed in an F!  Cool!

In winter - I once timed a climb to 17000ft in under 13 min.  It climbs close to that fast in the summer but really after about 10 or 12 k I need to shallow it out or it would start to get warm.

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Wow - that's better than I would have guessed in an F!  Cool!

In winter - I once timed a climb to 17000ft in under 13 min.  It climbs close to that fast in the summer but really after about 10 or 12 k I need to shallow it out or it would start to get warm.

Different day and leveled earlier but you can see that it’s not far fetched.

 

[laytonl]

For me it’s,

 

power up (all lever forward)

pitch up - 8 degrees

gear up

flaps up 

cowl flaps open

I trim during the process as necessary.

Lee

[jetdriven]

Power up, pitch up, clean up. Works in all airplanes

[201er]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

Power up, pitch up, clean up. Works in all airplanes

It’s pitch down. You gotta be ready to pitch down because it already pitches up on its own when you add power.

Edited April 19, 2022 by 201er

[Andy95W]

12 hours ago, 201er said:

It’s pitch down. You gotta be ready to pitch down because it already pitches up on its own when you add power.

Byron’s point was simply that you fly the airplane.

Yes, you will likely have to push forward on the yoke.  But the angle of attack you’re aiming for is higher than it was for the landing.

 

Edited April 19, 2022 by Andy95W

[jetdriven]

13 hours ago, 201er said:

It’s pitch down. You gotta be ready to pitch down because it already pitches up on its own when you add power.

You’re still pitching up.  Whether it takes a pull or a push to get that is a different thing. 

[201er]

1 minute ago, jetdriven said:

You’re still pitching up.  Whether it takes a pull or a push to get that is a different thing. 

True. I think this is why it gets confusing and leads to go around crashes.

[Rick Junkin]

Part of the issue at hand with pitch is the memory aid of, "power up, pitch up, clean up, cowl flaps open". It's great as a memory aid as long as we have thought through what it is supposed to be prompting us to do. The smoother we can be with each action the easier it is for us to manage.

Here's the technique I established for an instrument missed approach in my Bravo. I use the same technique for a balked/bounced landing.

Power up - Smoothly increase power to climb/takeoff power as required. Confirm prop and mixture are full forward.

Pitch up - SET PITCH to climb pitch, ~8 degrees, and trim to keep it there. For my Bravo that requires immediate simultaneous forward pressure on the yoke and electric trim switches and a fairly large boot of right rudder. The purpose of this step is to get me moving away from the ground under control before I go to the next step.

Clean up - I don't do this in the order called out in the flight manual. I retract the gear first, partly because it's the bigger drag reducer and also because it doesn't cause much of a pitch force or lift change while I'm still closer to the ground. But the bigger reason is I have no selectable intermediate position when retracting my flaps. I don't want to be distracted looking at the flap indicator and trying to manually stop the retraction at ~10 degrees while dealing with the associated pitch force change as the flaps retract. So I get the gear confirmed up and then I start the flaps up as I accelerate and let them retract fully while I focus on adjusting the trim to hold 8 degrees of pitch. 

Aside: The flap switch on my Bravo (actually an original TLS, #19) has three positions: UP, which fully retracts the flaps; OFF (center position) which allows me to stop the flaps at any position; and DOWN, which is a momentary contact position I must hold down until the flaps have deployed to where I want them and then release it to the OFF position. It takes about 1 second to deploy to the takeoff position, nominally 10 degrees, and another 6 seconds to fully deploy to 33 degrees. Retraction times are slightly less. I just looked at the flight manual and it says the flap position switch is supposed to function differently with an UP, TAKEOFF and DOWN position. Great, more research for me to do.

Cowl flaps open - This is a CONFIRM step for me, as I open the cowl flaps when I put the gear down at the FAF or when entering the VFR pattern.

Cheers,
Rick

[jetdriven]

On 4/19/2022 at 12:04 PM, Junkman said:

, 

Cowl flaps open - This is a CONFIRM step for me, as I open the cowl flaps when I put the gear down at the FAF or when entering the VFR pattern.

Cheers,
Rick

I’ve seen people do this I question it in my mind. Opening the cowl flaps just  as you pull the power off to land.  You can analyze the EDM data but the CHT’s probably crash at this point.  You can go around with the cowl flaps closed for two or three or four minutes before the CHT’s reach  unacceptable levels, and this is a rare occasion. But crash cooling them before every landing I would think eventually is going to ge expensive. 
A client of mine just flew through intermittent  heavy rain in cruise, And the next flight he burned through 6 quarts of oil in 50 minutes and landed with almost nothing. A broken oil control ring. It seems to be only one or two reasons for this, and one of them is a suddenly contracting cylinder barrel with a hot piston ring that contracts until the ring end gap disappears, and then it shattered into 10 pieces.   

[ArtVandelay]

I’ve seen people do this I question it in my mind. Opening the cowl flaps just  as you pull the power off to land.  You can analyze the EDM data but the CHT’s probably crash at this point.  You can go around with the cowl flaps closed for two or three or four minutes before the CHT’s reach  unacceptable levels, and this is a rare occasion. But crash cooling them before every landing I would think eventually is going to ge expensive. 

I do this on short final, CHTs don’t crash, they drop 20-40°.

I do it to try to make hot starts a little easier by getting the fuel lines cooled.

[Rick Junkin]

 

At the risk of further hijacking this thread,

11 hours ago, jetdriven said:

I’ve seen people do this I question it in my mind. Opening the cowl flaps just  as you pull the power off to land.  You can analyze the EDM data but the CHT’s probably crash at this point.

 

7 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

I do this on short final, CHTs don’t crash, they drop 20-40°.

My experience is similar to Art's. My CHT's are ~300+/- on approach at 22'/2200 and drop about 20-30 degrees by landing after I open the cowl flaps and adjust power for descent from the FAF. Lycoming recommends cooling at a rate of less than 50 degrees F per minute to avoid shock cooling so my engine stays well within those parameters.  https://www.lycoming.com/content/how-avoid-sudden-cooling-your-engine

I also keep the mixture leaned until my final GUMPS(F) check at 500' which helps keep the temps from dropping too much.

Just for fun, here's an article that is sure to induce some visceral reactions in both directions: https://www.avweb.com/ownership/shock-cooling-time-to-kill-the-myth/ Be sure to read the comments section.

Cheers,
Rick

[ArtVandelay]

I think shock cooling is only an issue for turbocharged engines, the environment in the flight levels is more extreme; pulling power and then descending into precipitation with temperatures well below freezing I would imagine could cause a rapid drop of CHT temperatures.

[Pilot boy]

Proper procedure at my flight school for the order is flaps, gear,flaps.  How I manage the power and trim and that first removal of flaps is to wait until I’m at least starting to climb.  My E model I can overpower trim up pretty much anytime but I often don’t use full power in go arounds as it’s unnecessary and could result in the infamous p factor trim up stall.

Reason for gear 2nd after full flaps removal is if you sink and touch runway or grass you want the gear down.  Also full flaps creates a lot of drag.  The first half of say takeoff flaps the lift/drag ratio is much better.