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Posted

Quote: jetdriven

Right on, Gary.  Although I think a 29 year old engine has only core value, a 5 year old engine is worth something.  Our engine was 10 years old and 1300 SMOH and we paid the value of its remaining hours. I just got into a pretty hot discussion over on BeechTalk with a shop owner that declares any engine or prop beyond  TBO calendar time or hours as "unairworthy" and signs off the annual as such.  This from a 20- year shop owner.   Amazing!

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It sure would be nice if everything in life had black-and-white hard specifications, but it doesn't. Some of these answers sound like you can open a handbok and find the one and only answer to your question. As GB said it is location and maintenance for this particular engine that matters to you, not some generality or rule of thumb. Hanging around my former mechanic's shop I saw the inside of a 1930's Taylorcraft engine which had not flown in 60 years that looked perfect when they did an overhaul. I  also saw a Lycoming engine with 400 hours SMO that had corossion and spalling after sitting in an open hanger for 4 or 5 years even though it had been used periodically during the summer months. 


Basically, it all comes down to the condition of this particular engine; there is no one answer about engines in general which will help you; you need to know about this specific engine. 


You can find factory fresh engines with major problems, and also 30 year old engines that will run fine for many more years and hours. A 29 year old engine that passes a thorough inspection (including the cam inspection) doesn't have as much value as a similar engine with 5 years SFO , but it certainly has value. It also carries some risk, just as every engine and system in our planes. If you like the plane and the price seems reasonable get a GOOD inspection.  


When I bought my first plane ( a '62 C ) I planned to do a lot of upgrades and improvements. It was a lot of fun, I learned a LOT about Mooneys, and I ended up with a great plane that was safe and fun to fly.


The next time around I told Jimmy Garrison at All American that I wanted to find a plane that someone else had put the time and money into upgrading. The cost to buy an upgraded plane was much less than doing the upgrades myself.


My humble advice: Ask yourself if you want to buy a project, are looking for a bargain that you may or may not need to spend a lot on, or if you should be buying a plane that has a better probability of not requiring a major investment. 


1. If you ABSOLUTELY INTEND to do all the replacements and upgrades, think about finding one that already has the equipment and is in the condition you want. It will be the most cost effective way to get there.


2. If you want to hedge your bet  and have the reserve cash to do repairs as required when necessary, go ahead and buy a bargain plane after a very thorough inspection, find a good mechanic to become frineds with, and do thorough condition inspections of everything you identify as an item to watch. Sometimes this will work if you can pay for the upgrades as you go along out of cash flow instead of from a reserve fund, but you still need that reserve to pay for repairs that are not planned and cannot be safely put off.


3. If you won't have the reserve cash to do repairs and upgrades, then think very serioulsy about whether this is a good budget or good time for you to buy a plane by yourself. I don't like the idea of plane partners, but if I were in thsi category I would try to find one to split the expenses. I'd rather deal with a partner than to be without a plane.


I really enjoyed working on the 62 C with my mechanic, and learned a lot. If I had to do it over agian I would not change a thing. It was great experience. It was not a good investment in terms of money in / money recouped, but it was an experience that I never regretted.


Best of luck.


Jim


 


Posted

It amazes me that there is even a discussion on this! The fact is an engine sitting unused with 5 year old break-in oil is neglected for whatever reason, and can only be considered a pile scrap until proven otherwise. The exposure is real that the engine needs serious money weather he keeps the airplane or sells it. The seller has to be reasonable and frankly greatful he has a potential serious buyer. If he is serious about selling, it seems to me, he should consider cutting his losses for a neglected airplane/engine. On the other hand it would be the seller benefiting had he not neglected it. You are buying an airplane, not a lawnmower! 

Posted

Quote: allsmiles

It amazes me that there is even a discussion on this! The fact is an engine sitting unused with 5 year old break-in oil is neglected for whatever reason, and can only be considered a pile scrap until proven otherwise. The exposure is real that the engine needs serious money weather he keeps the airplane or sells it. The seller has to be reasonable and frankly greatful he has a potential serious buyer. If he is serious about selling, it seems to me, he should consider cutting his losses for a neglected airplane/engine. On the other hand it would be the seller benefiting had he not neglected it. You are buying an airplane, not a lawnmower! 

Posted

Do a good inspection and if everything looks good not perfect and the price is right buy the plane and fly the heck out of it.  Sitting is the worst thing for the plane and if you are not flying it enough find a pilot friend you trust and make a deal with him so he can fly it as well.  The right deal may even help you reduce some of the fixed costs associated with the plane.  My mechanic’s opinion is Lycoming engines are more robust than most make them out to be. 

Posted

Quote: jetdriven

Worst case the thing gets can spalling and it has to be replaced.   But until then, run that thing.  

Posted

Quote: allsmiles

It amazes me that there is even a discussion on this! The fact is an engine sitting unused with 5 year old break-in oil is neglected for whatever reason, and can only be considered a pile scrap until proven otherwise. The exposure is real that the engine needs serious money weather he keeps the airplane or sells it. The seller has to be reasonable and frankly greatful he has a potential serious buyer. If he is serious about selling, it seems to me, he should consider cutting his losses for a neglected airplane/engine. On the other hand it would be the seller benefiting had he not neglected it. You are buying an airplane, not a lawnmower! 

Posted

Thanks, Gary.  My dad used to say never argue with a fool or a jackass, because an onlooker might not be able to tell who is who.

Posted

Is the OP still with us, or are we just squabling amongst ourselves again?


To the OP-


Here's what I'd do; If I really liked the plane and if the plane were a hangared plane, during the pre buy I would pay extra and pull one jug. Once you do that, you can visually inspect the condition of the cam lobes and lifters for that cylinder and the rest of the lobes can be inspected with a bore scope I believe. The plane has averaged around 65 hours a year since the cylinders, so that's not so bad as long as there has been good activity in recent years. The motor could be just fine. If the plane is one that has spent most of it's time on a tie down, I'd move on.

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