Feedback On Panel Design/Layout

[GeneralT001]

I'm working on a panel design in Ppt. It is pretty much to scale (at least as best as I can get it). Was hoping that you could offer some suggestions about the layout and what else I might want to include or maybe reposition?

• Right now I am hoping I can get rid of the Speed Brake button and move it onto the Yoke.
• Also,, if I move the Landing Gear Handle to a place below the GI275 then I can probably have enough real estate to add an iPad dock on the co-pilots side, by sliding the GTN to the left.

 

Thoughts?

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by GeneralT001

[carusoam]

How did the speed brake button end up there?

There are thousands of Mooneys with the standard button cluster on the left horn of the pilot’s yoke… it may have been a BK part…

Acquiring one of those is a common challenge…  

Trim switch, AP disconnect, and Speed Brakes under your thumb… 

The advantage of the speed brake button on the yoke… you don’t want to look for the switch when you are using it near the ground…

 

See if @Baker Avionics Greg can have a look… Greg knows instrument panels…

Best regards,

-a-

[GeneralT001]

2 minutes ago, carusoam said:

How did the speed brake button end up there?

There are thousands of Mooneys with the standard button cluster on the left horn of the pilot’s yoke… it may have been a BK part…

Acquiring one of those is a common challenge…  

Trim switch, AP disconnect, and Speed Brakes under your thumb… 

 

See if @Baker Avionics Greg can have a look… Greg knows instrument panels…

Best regards,

-a-

It was mounted on the panel when I bought the plane...seemed awkward from the get go.

I do have the trim switch AP disconnect/CWS on the LHS of the Yoke...maybe no room for the Speed Brake on that side of the yoke?

Edited February 27, 2022 by GeneralT001

[LANCECASPER]

18 minutes ago, GeneralT001 said:

I'm working on a panel design in Ppt. It is pretty much to scale (at least as best as I can get it). Was hoping that you could offer some suggestions about the layout and what else I might want to include or maybe reposition?

• Right now I am hoping I can get rid of the Speed Brake button and move it onto the Yoke.
• Also,, if I move the Landing Gear Handle to a place below the GI275 then I can probably have enough real estate to add an iPad dock on the co-pilots side, by sliding the GTN to the left.

 

Thoughts?

 

The G3X and G5 work much better together and offer better redundancy than the G3X and the GI275 even though the GI-275 is nicer looking.

[carusoam]

5 minutes ago, GeneralT001 said:

It was mounted on the panel when I bought the plane...seemed awkward from the get go.

I do have the trim switch AP disconnect/CWS on the LHS of the Yoke...maybe no room for the Speed Brake on that side of the yoke?

Seeing the non-standard switch used, and the yoke cluster switch you have…

It looks like a PO may have added the Speed Brakes later on…

Hence, my note in your other thread… about the strength of Speed brakes, and how to use them for E-descents…

There is a procedure for that!  (That isn’t very intuitive with all of its details… Vne, Vge, Vg…)

The Speed Brakes are very speed related… caused by the change of AOA they generate, not the fact they are sticking up in the wind…

-a-

[GeneralT001]

2 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

The G3X and G5 work much better together and offer better redundancy than the G3X and the GI275.

Can the G5 work with the GFC500? I know the GI275 can.

[LANCECASPER]

1 minute ago, GeneralT001 said:

Can the G5 work with the GFC500? I know the GI275 can.

Yes the G3X, the G5 and the GFC500 all came over from the Garmin Experimental and were designed to work together

[GeneralT001]

Just now, LANCECASPER said:

Yes the G3X, the G5 and the GFC500 all came over from the Garmin Experimental and were designed to work together

Hmmm....cost savings...who can no to that??  Thanks.

[LANCECASPER]

1 minute ago, GeneralT001 said:

Hmmm....cost savings...who can no to that??  Thanks.

 

[GeneralT001]

Added the iPAD. Not sure if that will be added or not...seems like it could be useful.

[carusoam]

iPad is great for a lot of things…

But, they also have challenges…. They age, get stale…. And new replacements are always different dimensions…. 
 

More screens are better… and iPads have other real uses…

There are iPad mounts that may handle the change in dimension better…

Best regards,

-a-

[Aerodon]

12 hours ago, GeneralT001 said:

Added the iPAD. Not sure if that will be added or not...seems like it could be useful.

Nice layouts, what software are you using?  Look for a vertical 'Artex ELT switch - I prefer locating it on the RHS.  No clock?   No dimmer switch?  I also don't like the idea of iPads on the panel - will be redundant and the next one won't fit.  A vertical Garmin Area 760 would be nice on the copilots side. 

I like the remote audio panel, remote transponder.  I don't see your second nav com, are you thinking the GNC255 can be mounted remotely and controlled with the G3x? You second navcom is more important than the GTN750 - this is the one that is wired as 'more failsafe' so that if your audio panel stops working, or GTN screen goes dark, you still have a radio straight through to the headsets.   I think you will get an SL30 in your main stack if you go remote audio?

And you are missing the annunciator panel.

It gets 

 

[carusoam]

+1 for portable Garmin device in place of iPad….

unless the iPad is going to be used as an inflight entertainment device….

-a-

[GeneralT001]

4 hours ago, Aerodon said:

Nice layouts, what software are you using?  Look for a vertical 'Artex ELT switch - I prefer locating it on the RHS.  No clock?   No dimmer switch?  I also don't like the idea of iPads on the panel - will be redundant and the next one won't fit.  A vertical Garmin Area 760 would be nice on the copilots side. 

I like the remote audio panel, remote transponder.  I don't see your second nav com, are you thinking the GNC255 can be mounted remotely and controlled with the G3x? You second navcom is more important than the GTN750 - this is the one that is wired as 'more failsafe' so that if your audio panel stops working, or GTN screen goes dark, you still have a radio straight through to the headsets.   I think you will get an SL30 in your main stack if you go remote audio?

And you are missing the annunciator panel.

It gets 

 

Hi,

Its just Power Point.

Yeah, I'll be adding a clock...thinking digital. Oops forgot about the dimmer switch for lighting.

I'll check into the Garmin Area 760.

The GTN 750Xi has a built in NAV/COMM and the 2nd one is the GNC 255A. Yes, I'm going to remote the audio panel and have the GNC 255A in the stack.

Yes, left out the annunciator panel intentionally.

[LANCECASPER]

I've used every sized iPad ever made mounted every conceivable place and my conclusion is that the new iPad mini 6 on the yoke with a Steelie mount is probably close to the perfect option. The other travel iPad is a 12.9"Pro so the mini is airplane exclusive.

[Baker Avionics]

On 2/26/2022 at 8:13 PM, carusoam said:

How did the speed brake button end up there?

There are thousands of Mooneys with the standard button cluster on the left horn of the pilot’s yoke… it may have been a BK part…

Acquiring one of those is a common challenge…  

Trim switch, AP disconnect, and Speed Brakes under your thumb… 

The advantage of the speed brake button on the yoke… you don’t want to look for the switch when you are using it near the ground…

 

See if @Baker Avionics Greg can have a look… Greg knows instrument panels…

Best regards,

-a-

Sorry for the delay.  We took the entire crew to the NW Aviation Trade Show and Conference and it was AWESOME!!!!  Met up with Skip while we were there and it is always great to meet up with folks from here to put faces with posts.  LOL. There are ways to put the Speed brake switch on the yoke.  They have extensions that give you more real estate on the yoke horns and that may be needed.  As far as moving the gear handle, easy peasy.  Be aware that if you move the stack to the left, you may need to contend with the V Bar in the front of the instrument panel, depending on the model.  We have done it and it is a tedious process, but you can definitely do it.  Any questions you have, feel free to email as that is the best form of communication for me.  I will help as much as I can!!!

[GeneralT001]

I've added the Annunciator Panel (WIP), the Hobbs meter - I know its not needed...but I like it :)), a clock - takes ideas for which clock to install?, headphone jacks, G-Meter I know, not needed, glare shield/panel dimmer switch and remoted the audio panel.

Thought or ideas on improvement?

[StevenL757]

59 minutes ago, GeneralT001 said:

I've added the Annunciator Panel (WIP), the Hobbs meter - I know its not needed...but I like it :)), a clock - takes ideas for which clock to install?, headphone jacks, G-Meter I know, not needed, glare shield/panel dimmer switch and remoted the audio panel.

Thought or ideas on improvement?

Less is more.  The original panel layout in your first post was much more palatable, so please allow me to give a few suggestions...

• Place clock to the left of the G3X Touch.
• Get rid of whatever is below the gear handle (G-meter??)
• Move the GMC507 (autopilot controller) to the top of the stack underneath the annunciator.  So the order from top to bottom would be...
  • Annunciator
  • GMC507
  • GTN750Xi
  • Secondary NAV radio
• Many folks will disagree with me here, but get the iPad out of the panel...altogether.  The iPad is a piece of consumer electronics that is not designed to be placed in a panel, but rather carried as an EFB.  It isn't designed to be used as a flight instrument, "copilot" instrument, or placed in your scan.  Our Mooneys do not require copilots.  :-)
• Instead of the GMA345, consider the PMA450B from PS Engineering.  As @Mscheuer can help convey, the 450B is far superior to any Garmin audio panel...including the 350C/35C, and at a very nominal upgrade price from your GMA345.
• Make the GTX345D panel-mounted instead of remote, and place it AND your audio panel to the right of your 750Xi.  With audio and XPDR functionality on their own respective units.  If you lose a display where one or both of these functions is displayed, that particular display doesn't take out your audio and/or XPDR.
• Reference pic of my prior Ovation below.

In general, I like your overall planning thoughts, and willingness to explore options, and am looking forward to seeing how everything comes together for you.

Steve

Edited March 1, 2022 by StevenL757

[GeneralT001]

56 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

Less is more.  The original panel layout in your first post was much more palatable, so please allow me to give a few suggestions...

• Place clock to the left of the G3X Touch.
• Get rid of whatever is below the gear handle (G-meter??)
• Move the GMC507 (autopilot controller) to the top of the stack underneath the annunciator.  So the order from top to bottom would be...
  • Annunciator
  • GMC507
  • GTN750Xi
  • Secondary NAV radio
• Many folks will disagree with me here, but get the iPad out of the panel...altogether.  The iPad is a piece of consumer electronics that is not designed to be placed in a panel, but rather carried as an EFB.  It isn't designed to be used as a flight instrument, "copilot" instrument, or placed in your scan.  Our Mooneys do not require copilots.  :-)
• Instead of the GMA345, consider the PMA450B from PS Engineering.  As @Mscheuer can help convey, the 450B is far superior to any Garmin audio panel...including the 350C/35C, and at a very nominal upgrade price from your GMA345.
• Make the GTX345D panel-mounted instead of remote, and place it AND your audio panel to the right of your 750Xi.  With audio and XPDR functionality on their own respective units.  If you lose a display where one or both of these functions is displayed, that particular display doesn't take out your audio and/or XPDR.
• Reference pic of my prior Ovation below.

In general, I like your overall planning thoughts, and willingness to explore options, and am looking forward to seeing how everything comes together for you.

Steve

Hi,

 

Thanks for the feedback. Is your Ovation panel the same dimensions as the M20J....40" x 12"? I don't like having things remote either tbh and I see everything you have fits well in your panel

[StevenL757]

1 hour ago, GeneralT001 said:

Hi,

Thanks for the feedback. Is your Ovation panel the same dimensions as the M20J....40" x 12"? I don't like having things remote either tbh and I see everything you have fits well in your panel

The “J” panel is actually a bit shorter than the Ovations, but what you have laid out there appears to fit well.  You could conceivably put a GNC355 in the space below the 750Xi, but your avionics guys should measure and be the final word obviously.  I also like where you located the Hobbs and GSB15 chargers.

[GeneralT001]

Iteration #6

I've been back and forth wrt either the Garmin GMA 345 or the PMA 450B Audio Panel, in the end I decided to just stick with all Garmin for better or worse...

I know that the G3X has a G-Meter in it (apparently) but I like the idea and look of the stand alone G-Meter, so plan on keeping that.

Wrt a clock...the one I put on the panel seems like overkill...is there something more basic and aesthetic or is the one in the pic worth keeping?

Went a little artsy with the poetry and not even sure something like that is doable with panel etching/CNC capability?

Moved the GFC500 to the bottom as I think the GTN 750Xi should be higher for line of sight.

 

Still open to ideas/thoughts

[ArtVandelay]

Vacuum system is being removed I assume?

Engine monitor functionality will handle voltage warnings.

That only leaves annunciator to give gear unsafe and down indications, I would remove it and just use standard warning lights.

And why not move headset jacks to panel?

[GeneralT001]

6 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Vacuum system is being removed I assume?

Engine monitor functionality will handle voltage warnings.

That only leaves annunciator to give gear unsafe and down indications, I would remove it and just use standard warning lights.

And why not move headset jacks to panel?

Yes, vacuum system is going.

Interesting point about the Annunciator Panel. Does it have to be there for certification? Have to look into that a bit further. Do other models of the Mooney only use warning lights? I know I've flown in aircraft that have green and red lights in the landing gear handle to indicate safe up or down.

Yes, I was planning on putting the jacks on the panel

[Aerodon]

46 minutes ago, GeneralT001 said:

 

Yes, I was planning on putting the jacks on the panel

The bottom of the Mooney panel is rolled back with a 1/2" radius.  If you mount the jacks on an angle bracket at the back of this, then the jacks or somewhat recessed and protected.  I even prefer mounting them vertically (like Cessna) in order to protect the jacks and cables.

Aerodon

[LANCECASPER]

More food for thought: