Need Original M20F (circa 1975) Weight and Balance

[Rivermoney]

I am looking for anyone who might have a copy/picture of a 1975 era M20F (SN 22-1200 range). I purchased the plane in the last year, while there are W&B updates in the POH during various STC's etc. there is no original to be found (The previous owner provided original logs/records, etc. but no original W&B is evident). My goal is to calculate the W&B through its time period - we recently removed some of the early year equipment, Pathfinder, Loran, DME, etc. and installed some new items - avionics, oil cooler mod, elec mag, etc. If someone has an original W&B that would be great.

Yes, I know I can just get the A/C weighed to get a new baseline. Until then I would like to compare a build up from birth to what the POH calculations have been over time. Yes, I like doing math problems. 

Thanks in advance.

[JWJR]

I have a 75 C. Did you look in original airframe logbook ( first few pages) from 75?


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[Marc_B]

I would email Mooney at support@mooney.com. If you give them your manual number they probably can send you a pdf of the generic manual. Of course it wouldn’t be specific to your Mooney but someone else’s pages wouldn’t be either.  I did the same and they were able to help with some basic info I needed. 
marc. 

[Vance Harral]

Attached are a couple of files, though I'm not sure they're going to be that helpful to you.

The first is a legible scan of the M20F "Weight and Balance Handbook".  This generic document shows arms and stations for various standard and optional equipment, in that era.

The second is a somewhat less legible scan of the actual weight and balance record for 1976 M20F S/N 22-1375 as it left the factory.  It's a copy of the "Weight and Balance Handbook" with actual data for this particular serial number.  Equipped with both documents, you can tease out the details of this particular airplane.

The stumbling block is that if you look closely, equipment was installed in S/N 22-1375 at the factory, which is not in the list of optional equipment found in the generic "Weight and Balance Handbook".  For example, there is no entry in the generic document for an "Alert 50 -- ELT", but there is an entry in the S/N 22-1375 original weight and balance record for that device.

The original weight and balance record for your airplane almost certainly had similar equipment: things for which the factory knew the W&B info, but which is not listed in the generic W&B document.  I suppose it's possible someone can send you an original W&B for an airplane that just happened to be identically equipped to your airplane, but that's probably a long shot.  No harm in asking, though.

weight_and_balance_record.pdf weight_and_balance_handbook.pdf

[Rivermoney]

1 hour ago, JWJR said:

I have a 75 C. Did you look in original airframe logbook ( first few pages) from 75?


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Thanks - the log does have an entry several months after mfg when the Pathfinder was installed - that is the earliest W&B entry but not factory. That is a good start along with information Vance submitted in another response. 

[Rivermoney]

11 minutes ago, Vance Harral said:

Attached are a couple of files, though I'm not sure they're going to be that helpful to you.

The first is a legible scan of the M20F "Weight and Balance Handbook".  This generic document shows arms and stations for various standard and optional equipment, in that era.

The second is a somewhat less legible scan of the actual weight and balance record for 1976 M20F S/N 22-1375 as it left the factory.  It's a copy of the "Weight and Balance Handbook" with actual data for this particular serial number.  Equipped with both documents, you can tease out the details of this particular airplane.

The stumbling block is that if you look closely, equipment was installed in S/N 22-1375 at the factory, which is not in the list of optional equipment found in the generic "Weight and Balance Handbook".  For example, there is no entry in the generic document for an "Alert 50 -- ELT", but there is an entry in the S/N 22-1375 original weight and balance record for that device.

The original weight and balance record for your airplane almost certainly had similar equipment: things for which the factory knew the W&B info, but which is not listed in the generic W&B document.  I suppose it's possible someone can send you an original W&B for an airplane that just happened to be identically equipped to your airplane, but that's probably a long shot.  No harm in asking, though.

weight_and_balance_record.pdf 8.83 MB · 1 download weight_and_balance_handbook.pdf 788.87 kB · 1 download

Thanks - this is great and helpful and answers the question - I am 22-1295. I know there might have been a few changes in 1975 to 1976 models but I can go through the list you provided and sort those. Thanks again. 

[RLCarter]

Using someone else’s Weight & Balance to see your W&B changes over the years? Might as well just guess. The only way to know is have it weighed per the maintenance manual, all the old W&B sheets I have for mine ALL have errors, while small they are still errors. 

[ShuRugal]

you're going to need to get the plane weighed.

You can't use the factory W&B from a different bird and recompute from there, every one of these birds left the factory with different weight and CG.

Also, if you can't trust the current numbers, what makes you think you can trust the Mx log entries for equipment added/removed over the years to recompute from factory numbers to the current correct numbers?

[PT20J]

I don't have a manual for an F. For both my 1978 J and 1994 J, the original factory W&B was entered on the first line of the page titled OWNER'S WEIGHT AND BALANCE RECORD. This page is in section VI Weight and Balance and is located immediately after the weighing procedure.

Skip

[Rivermoney]

4 minutes ago, PT20J said:

I don't have a manual for an F. For both my 1978 J and 1994 J, the original factory W&B was entered on the first line of the page titled OWNER'S WEIGHT AND BALANCE RECORD. This page is in section VI Weight and Balance and is located immediately after the weighing procedure.

Skip

Thanks - my POH, which is original, does not have a formal W&B loading section which is puzzling. The Log of Pages is complete and all pages and sections are present. Section VI for mine is Performance - no W&B there. There is minimal weight and loading notation in section 1 - General Description. The AF Log has does have an entry a few months after manufacturing  when an item was added to the A/C. The gentleman above provided some good historical info in the two documents. I am curious to know more about what was noted then and compare it to the log entires over time. I removed many original items last week, Pathfinder/KN65, etc. I know the weights on the data plates but am curious to see how those compare to what the factory might have used - brackets, wiring, etc. and there is a data plate that is missing. Also, it is useful to check for errors in log calculations - many in the early days were hand calculations. I know each A/C was different...but it is informative to see an actual W&B Loading doc from that era. Gives me more knowledge about Mooney and the A/C. My experiences are with more complex A/C with extremely variable loads and environments so this gets me to learn more about the GA process. Thanks.

[PT20J]

I just did a major avionics rip and replace and had the shop weigh the airplane. There is some guestimation about weights and arms especially when cable runs are involved and since a lot of changes had been made over many years I decided it was best to reweigh it. In my case, I got the following for my M20J.

As delivered 1994: 1948 lb., 46.1"

Last calculated 2020: 1927 lb., 46.4"

As weighed 2021: 1895 lb, 46.0"

Skip

[Vance Harral]

53 minutes ago, Rivermoney said:

Thanks - my POH, which is original, does not have a formal W&B loading section which is puzzling.

Prior to some point in the model history (not sure when, but guessing all models before the M20J), W&B information was in a separate document called the "Weight and Balance Record".  That's what I posted above.  The "POH" for older model Mooneys is actually titled "Operator's Manual".  You need both of these documents in the airplane to be compliant with the M20 TCDS.  If you have only the Operators Manual, but not the Weight and Balance Record, the airplane is technically unairworthy.

Note that having just a single sheet that records the empty weight and moment does not meet the requirement to have the Weight and Balance Record onboard.  The latter document is the only place you'll find the graphs you need to compute the moments for passengers, luggage, etc.

[David Lloyd]

6 or 8 months ago, I emailed Mooney asking if they had any W&B record for my 1975 C.  Within a few days I received copies of my original W&B, all the original worksheets.  Can't get better than that.

Kevin Kammer, CFIMEII A&P IA MS

Director Customer Service

Director Quality Assurance

Mooney International Corporation

d 830.792.2919

f  830.257.4635

kkammer@mooney.com

 David, enclosed is the data I could find concerning the weight and balance information, serial number 20-1165.  Let me know if this is what you were after,  Sincerely, Kevin Kammer

 From: Mooney [mailto:email@mooney.com]
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2021 12:34 PM
To: technicalsupport <technicalsupport@mooney.com>
Subject: New message from "Mooney"

 Name: David Lloyd
Email: 
Phone: 
Message: I own N147EB, a 1975 M20C, s/n 20-1165. The original logbooks, Weight & Balance with equipment list were lost in Canada after export in 1978. I would like to get a copy of that original Weight & Balance with equipment list if available. The original registration was N6835V.

[Hank]

14 hours ago, Vance Harral said:

Prior to some point in the model history (not sure when, but guessing all models before the M20J), W&B information was in a separate document called the "Weight and Balance Record".  That's what I posted above.  The "POH" for older model Mooneys is actually titled "Operator's Manual".  You need both of these documents in the airplane to be compliant with the M20 TCDS.  If you have only the Operators Manual, but not the Weight and Balance Record, the airplane is technically unairworthy.

Note that having just a single sheet that records the empty weight and moment does not meet the requirement to have the Weight and Balance Record onboard.  The latter document is the only place you'll find the graphs you need to compute the moments for passengers, luggage, etc.

The TCDS gives arms for the seats (at each detent point), back seat, baggage, etc. Much easier than trying to read graphs, which the Owners Manual for my C does not have. 

[Rivermoney]

16 hours ago, David Lloyd said:

6 or 8 months ago, I emailed Mooney asking if they had any W&B record for my 1975 C.  Within a few days I received copies of my original W&B, all the original worksheets.  Can't get better than that.

Kevin Kammer, CFIMEII A&P IA MS

Director Customer Service

Director Quality Assurance

Mooney International Corporation

d 830.792.2919

f  830.257.4635

kkammer@mooney.com

 David, enclosed is the data I could find concerning the weight and balance information, serial number 20-1165.  Let me know if this is what you were after,  Sincerely, Kevin Kammer

 From: Mooney [mailto:email@mooney.com]
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2021 12:34 PM
To: technicalsupport <technicalsupport@mooney.com>
Subject: New message from "Mooney"

 Name: David Lloyd
Email: 
Phone: 
Message: I own N147EB, a 1975 M20C, s/n 20-1165. The original logbooks, Weight & Balance with equipment list were lost in Canada after export in 1978. I would like to get a copy of that original Weight & Balance with equipment list if available. The original registration was N6835V.

You folks are awesome. Thanks.

[JWJR]

Prior to some point in the model history (not sure when, but guessing all models before the M20J), W&B information was in a separate document called the "Weight and Balance Record".  That's what I posted above.  The "POH" for older model Mooneys is actually titled "Operator's Manual".  You need both of these documents in the airplane to be compliant with the M20 TCDS.  If you have only the Operators Manual, but not the Weight and Balance Record, the airplane is technically unairworthy.
Note that having just a single sheet that records the empty weight and moment does not meet the requirement to have the Weight and Balance Record onboard.  The latter document is the only place you'll find the graphs you need to compute the moments for passengers, luggage, etc.

Can one use the ForeFlight W&B and still be legal? This assuming you enter the info ( fuel , passenger, luggage)for the flight and have the iPhone/iPad with you. I hope so I’ve been doing it for good while.


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[Vance Harral]

4 hours ago, Hank said:

The TCDS gives arms for the seats (at each detent point), back seat, baggage, etc.

1 hour ago, JWJR said:

Can one use the ForeFlight W&B and still be legal?

I think I've done a poor job of communicating here, let me try again.

For vintage Mooneys, it's my understanding that the Weight and Balance Record legally has to be carried in the airplane, along with the Operators Manual.  The idea is that you're supposed to be able to run a W&B check using only the documents in the airplane.  Accordingly, in the unlikely-but-theoretical case of a ramp check, you could catch a violation for not having the Weight and Balance Record document in your vintage Mooney.  Yes, the odds of such a violation actually happening are astronomical - we're just talking theory here.

Whether you use that document in your own W&B computations is entirely up to you, particularly in the modern world of EFBs.  There are certainly other places to get the data and/or build an EFB W&B model.  I don't think there is any reasonable interpretation of the regulations which would require a vintage Mooney pilot to perform W&B computations using only the smudged, micro-size-font graphs in the 50-year-old Weight and Balance Record.

My CFI follow-up comment on this is, just make sure you understand the provenance of your W&B tool(s).  In a training or flight review situation, I'd be really comfortable with a pilot who showed me a W&B using arms from the M20F (or G or J or whatever) TCDS entry.  Also really comfortable with a W&B in Foreflight where the pilot says, "I created this W&B model in Foreflight using information in the TCDS/Weight and Balance Record"; or "I downloaded this model and checked it against the documents for my airplane".

I'm a lot less comfortable when a pilot says, "I do my W&B in Foreflight", with no further explanation.  Maybe this is less of an issue with Mooneys, but my worldview is biased by flocks of renter airmen who Google "Cessna 172" on the internet to get operating documents, and aren't yet skilled enough to understand the differences between a 1956 straight tail, fastback 172 (no trailing alphabetic character on that model), a post-2000 Cessna 172S, and everything in-between (including the ubiquitous 180hp aftermarket STCs).  For example, not to pick on JWJR, but the specific language he uses to ask if Foreflight is "legal" makes my Spidey Sense tingle.  Setting aside the question of FAA violations, what I really want to know is, where did he get the Foreflight model he's using, and how certain is he that it applies to the specific model of Mooney he flies?  Foreflight comes pre-loaded with W&B models for common aircraft, but it would be easy for someone to accidentally choose the wrong model number of the correct type.  More importantly, Foreflight explicitly permits individual users to e-mail W&B models directly amongst themselves; so sometimes the model being used is just from "some guy on the internet".  Any of you who frequent various aviation forums will see this frequently.  "Hey, anyone got a Foreflight W&B model for a BugSmasher 2000?"  Again, not trying to pick on JWJR here - my guess is he's done the appropriate due diligence but didn't want to get into a sideband conversation about it.

In summary, I think automated W&B tools like Foreflight, Excel spreadsheets, etc. are all great; and that it's completely "legal" to use them.  But I expect pilots to have a rock-solid story about the provenance of the underlying data when I ask them about garbage-in-garbage-out risk.  I can't speak for the FAA, but my guess is they take the same view.

[Marauder]

On 11/9/2021 at 10:43 AM, Rivermoney said:

I am looking for anyone who might have a copy/picture of a 1975 era M20F (SN 22-1200 range). I purchased the plane in the last year, while there are W&B updates in the POH during various STC's etc. there is no original to be found (The previous owner provided original logs/records, etc. but no original W&B is evident). My goal is to calculate the W&B through its time period - we recently removed some of the early year equipment, Pathfinder, Loran, DME, etc. and installed some new items - avionics, oil cooler mod, elec mag, etc. If someone has an original W&B that would be great.

Yes, I know I can just get the A/C weighed to get a new baseline. Until then I would like to compare a build up from birth to what the POH calculations have been over time. Yes, I like doing math problems. 

Thanks in advance.

I can help you. Send me a PM with your email and I will send you what I have.

[Hank]

20 minutes ago, Vance Harral said:

In summary, I think automated W&B tools like Foreflight, Excel spreadsheets, etc. are all great; and that it's completely "legal" to use them.  But I expect pilots to have a rock-solid story about the provenance of the underlying data when I ask them about garbage-in-garbage-out risk.  I can't speak for the FAA, but my guess is they take the same view.

I keep the official W&B in the plane, but it's only the plane. For loading, I built a spreadsheet using actual seat positions and various passenger / cargo loadings, with fuel in 10-gal increments from 10-50. Loadings that are out of CG are coded in red.

I also keep a copy of this in the plane.

[JWJR]

I think I've done a poor job of communicating here, let me try again.
For vintage Mooneys, it's my understanding that the Weight and Balance Record legally has to be carried in the airplane, along with the Operators Manual.  The idea is that you're supposed to be able to run a W&B check using only the documents in the airplane.  Accordingly, in the unlikely-but-theoretical case of a ramp check, you could catch a violation for not having the Weight and Balance Record document in your vintage Mooney.  Yes, the odds of such a violation actually happening are astronomical - we're just talking theory here.
Whether you use that document in your own W&B computations is entirely up to you, particularly in the modern world of EFBs.  There are certainly other places to get the data and/or build an EFB W&B model.  I don't think there is any reasonable interpretation of the regulations which would require a vintage Mooney pilot to perform W&B computations using only the smudged, micro-size-font graphs in the 50-year-old Weight and Balance Record.
My CFI follow-up comment on this is, just make sure you understand the provenance of your W&B tool(s).  In a training or flight review situation, I'd be really comfortable with a pilot who showed me a W&B using arms from the M20F (or G or J or whatever) TCDS entry.  Also really comfortable with a W&B in Foreflight where the pilot says, "I created this W&B model in Foreflight using information in the TCDS/Weight and Balance Record"; or "I downloaded this model and checked it against the documents for my airplane".
I'm a lot less comfortable when a pilot says, "I do my W&B in Foreflight", with no further explanation.  Maybe this is less of an issue with Mooneys, but my worldview is biased by flocks of renter airmen who Google "Cessna 172" on the internet to get operating documents, and aren't yet skilled enough to understand the differences between a 1956 straight tail, fastback 172 (no trailing alphabetic character on that model), a post-2000 Cessna 172S, and everything in-between (including the ubiquitous 180hp aftermarket STCs).  For example, not to pick on JWJR, but the specific language he uses to ask if Foreflight is "legal" makes my Spidey Sense tingle.  Setting aside the question of FAA violations, what I really want to know is, where did he get the Foreflight model he's using, and how certain is he that it applies to the specific model of Mooney he flies?  Foreflight comes pre-loaded with W&B models for common aircraft, but it would be easy for someone to accidentally choose the wrong model number of the correct type.  More importantly, Foreflight explicitly permits individual users to e-mail W&B models directly amongst themselves; so sometimes the model being used is just from "some guy on the internet".  Any of you who frequent various aviation forums will see this frequently.  "Hey, anyone got a Foreflight W&B model for a BugSmasher 2000?"  Again, not trying to pick on JWJR here - my guess is he's done the appropriate due diligence but didn't want to get into a sideband conversation about it.
In summary, I think automated W&B tools like Foreflight, Excel spreadsheets, etc. are all great; and that it's completely "legal" to use them.  But I expect pilots to have a rock-solid story about the provenance of the underlying data when I ask them about garbage-in-garbage-out risk.  I can't speak for the FAA, but my guess is they take the same view.

Yes due diligence done- Up to date data in Foreflight. Glad I’m legal


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[David Lloyd]

You can plug your aircraft's numbers into the Garmin Pilot W&B (Foreflight has something very similar) and get a graphical presentation of W&B and CG, the numbers for empty weight, loaded weight, weight at engine start, takeoff, landing, what happens when you slide the seat forward or back.  Just about everything you can imagine, much less need.  One thing it shows that is difficult to calculate by hand is the CG in relation to the slanted forward limit.  By myself or one other and nothing in the baggage, I am right at the forward limit.