RoundTwo Posted October 18, 2021 Report Posted October 18, 2021 As a fixed gear pilot looking for a Mooney, the most frightful thing I can think of is the possibility of landing gear up. In the case of landing gear up, and ignoring, or not hearing, gear horns, I wonder why technology hasn’t been used to make the alerts more noticeable and more difficult to miss and/or ignore? Here are a few ideas that easily come to mind for me… 1) Why not use triggered gear alarm input to initiate canned audio from the audio panel? Great noise attenuation headsets are awesome but they condition pilots to ignore what’s not piped into their ears. Extending Sonalert power into an audio panel with a built in GU Alert with sweeping tone and “GEAR UP! GEAR UP!” audible alert seems easy to do. 2) Why not add a visual annunciator at the base of the windscreen to flash when GU alerts sound? A blinking, backlit message board with warning style graphics up where a pilot is focusing during landing should get the proper amount of attention. Has anything like this been tried before? With all of the technology available to GA aircraft today, like active traffic alerting you to everything about nearby traffic except color of aircraft and what the pilot ate for breakfast, increasing the nuisance level of Gear Up alarms seems to be a no-brainer. And getting said alert system installed should lead to an immediate insurance reduction since it SHOULD immediately reduce the number of GU landings insurance companies would have to cover. OK, now that I typed all of this, I decided to do some googling and found that there are some options available. So the question is, why haven’t I seen any planes on the market listing something like this installed? Insurance premiums are skyrocketing, so why isn’t AOPA busting its hump trying insurance companies to offer discounts for installing such a device? Yes, all hypothetical questions, but one has to wonder. R2 Quote
drapo Posted October 18, 2021 Report Posted October 18, 2021 Reading your post, a certain commercial airline crash comes to mind. I remember an EAL L1011 that crashed in Florida as all three persons in the cockpit were concentrating on a single event, a green landing light that wouldn’t come on, and didn’t give attention to a low altitude alert! Eastern 401 crashed crashed in the Everglades, killing 101 of 176 on board. Lesson, don’t be a slave to technologies, good habits and a checklist should be sufficient. 3 Quote
N201MKTurbo Posted October 18, 2021 Report Posted October 18, 2021 I hate to be snarky, but if your greatest fear is landing gear up, you haven't flown enough. The only thing that gets hurt during a gear up is your pride and your wallet. Seriously, there is an advantage when flying a Mooney. The airplane is so slick that it is hard to get it slowed down to pattern speed. If you are approaching an airport and you just can't seem to get it slow enough, put the gear down. My Avidyne always tells me when I'm 500 feet above the airport, I always thank the Avidyne lady and check the gear. My gear horn works great. Sometimes when approaching an airport a little fast, and I'm still above gear speed, I just listen to the horn for a bit. 1 Quote
RoundTwo Posted October 18, 2021 Author Report Posted October 18, 2021 1 minute ago, drapo said: Reading your post, a certain commercial airline crash comes to mind. I remember an EAL L1011 that crashed in Florida as all three persons in the cockpit were concentrating on a single event, a green landing light that wouldn’t come on, and didn’t give attention to a low altitude alert! Eastern 401 crashed crashed in the Everglades, killing 101 of 176 on board. Lesson, don’t be a slave to technologies, good habits and a checklist should be sufficient. Yes, I totally agree that if everyone were to follow proper procedures and not to forget or get distracted, the number of gear ups would be lower. However, we all live and fly in an imperfect world with a myriad of distractions and pilots, good pilots, do forget to put gear down. A comprehensive alert or warning system isn’t there to be a crutch or a reason to get complacent, but only there to help provide an extra little something in case things aren’t going as planned and practiced. An gear up alert in the headsets most likely would have avoided this. R2 1 Quote
A64Pilot Posted October 18, 2021 Report Posted October 18, 2021 My opinion is we are “overcome by events” to use a military term, something else else has our attention and we just don’t do whatever, the Everglades slow descent into the swamp as an example. Also there is something called SLOJ or sudden loss of judgement, which means no matter how good you are, you occasionally do something stupid, like the guy who drives the same way to work for years, one day runs the stop sign they stop at every day. So long as your paranoid about it, in my opinion your less likely to be bit by it. I share your paranoia, mostly because I don’t want to look like a fool, and the costs. In answer or your question about has anything been done, the answer is yes, even automatic systems to lower the gear if you don’t have been done, but have brought their own issues. Do not allow your self to be rushed, use the word “Unable” to ATC or ask for more time if needed, simply tell them you need 30 sec to run the before landing checklist if you need it. Flip side of that is try not to be complacent, don’t allow yourself to believe your too good or too smart to do something like that. Quote
RoundTwo Posted October 18, 2021 Author Report Posted October 18, 2021 6 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said: I hate to be snarky, but if your greatest fear is landing gear up, you haven't flown enough. The only thing that gets hurt during a gear up is your pride and your wallet. Seriously, there is an advantage when flying a Mooney. The airplane is so slick that it is hard to get it slowed down to pattern speed. If you are approaching an airport and you just can't seem to get it slow enough, put the gear down. My Avidyne always tells me when I'm 500 feet above the airport, I always thank the Avidyne lady and check the gear. My gear horn works great. Sometimes when approaching an airport a little fast, and I'm still above gear speed, I just listen to the horn for a bit. Your snarkiness doesn’t bother me because I can use it too, but you’re dead wrong about the effects of a gear up landing. To get a quick reminder, check out your last insurance renewal notice. You’re paying for everyone else’s GU too. ;-) Touché <SNARK OFF> Quote
RoundTwo Posted October 18, 2021 Author Report Posted October 18, 2021 2 minutes ago, A64Pilot said: My opinion is we are “overcome by events” to use a military term, something else else has our attention and we just don’t do whatever, the Everglades slow descent into the swamp as an example. Also there is something called SLOJ or sudden loss of judgement, which means no matter how good you are, you occasionally do something stupid, like the guy who drives the same way to work for years, one day runs the stop sign they stop at every day. So long as your paranoid about it, in my opinion your less likely to be bit by it. I share your paranoia, mostly because I don’t want to look like a fool, and the costs. In answer or your question about has anything been done, the answer is yes, even automatic systems to lower the gear if you don’t have been done, but have brought their own issues. Do not allow your self to be rushed, use the word “Unable” to ATC or ask for more time if needed, simply tell them you need 30 sec to run the before landing checklist if you need it. Flip side of that is try not to be complacent, don’t allow yourself to believe your too good or too smart to do something like that. Agreed, sh!t happens and ingrained procedures get broken. Even procedures to check that procedures were followed break down. We’re all humans and we all make mistakes everyday. Luckily most mistakes aren’t very costly. Has anyone bought a new car recently that doesn’t have blind spot detection, lane departure warnings, adaptive cruise control, blah, blah, blah? All of these new safety features would be unnecessary if we all did what we were taught to do in 10th grade Drivers Ed, every time. However, accident investigations prove every day that we’re not doing it the way we were taught. The truth hurts and the truth is that we’re all human and we’re not infallible. Adding an additional GU alert to a plane doesn’t make anyone less of a pilot, but it does make a statement that the pilot accepts the reality that we all make mistakes. Quote
philiplane Posted October 18, 2021 Report Posted October 18, 2021 Install a PS Engineering PMA8000-G audio panel, and hook up one of the audio alerts to your gear warning horn circuit. When triggered, it will play whatever message you've recorded into your headset. Something like: CHECK LANDING GEAR...CHECK LANDING GEAR...CHECK INSURANCE POLICY Quote
ArtVandelay Posted October 18, 2021 Report Posted October 18, 2021 The Bose A20s don’t block out the gear warnings, maybe they allow certain frequencies through, and ditto for the stall warning.The warning speakers are in the roof right next to the pilots head.I’ve said this before, I don’t know how you get slowed down without dragging the gear, I gotta believe you really have to be totally distracted and unaware of your speed and surroundings to land gear up. There’s a vid (french pilots) landing with the horn blaring, I think the copilot was a instructor.How many of y’all have checked your gear warning works and is properly adjusted? Quote
N201MKTurbo Posted October 18, 2021 Report Posted October 18, 2021 36 minutes ago, RoundTwo said: Your snarkiness doesn’t bother me because I can use it too, but you’re dead wrong about the effects of a gear up landing. To get a quick reminder, check out your last insurance renewal notice. You’re paying for everyone else’s GU too. ;-) Touché <SNARK OFF> You are still talking about your wallet, not your life. I agree, people should stop landing gear up. I've flown almost 6000 hours and haven't landed gear up (knocking on wood, literally). The Mooney should be airworthy on Wednesday, so its possible I'll land gear up on Wednesday. People have been trying to make the gear handle foolproof ever since the first retractable airplane. They haven't succeeded yet. Every manner of technical solution has been tried decades ago. The solution still rests with the pilot in charge of the handle. 1 Quote
carusoam Posted October 18, 2021 Report Posted October 18, 2021 RT, I think you hit on the point… We are more human than you can imagine… and very prone to human error… 1) There are new technologies available so the screaming gear horn doesn’t get confused for something else under high stress… 2) The word distraction gets used to describe when the brain fades, under high work load… 3) The belief that it won’t happen to you because… (place your reason here) … is a great way to set yourself up for a GU… 4) Gumps, Gumps, Gumps…. You will find that people only do two… under the best conditions… 5) While you are still flying fixed gear…. Add a simulated switch and practice using it and checking the gear to be down… 6) One thing that will be different when you fly a Mooney… your time in the pattern will be slightly different…. But not by very much… 7) Lights in front of you are typically your AOAi…. Adding more lights has to be thought out carefully…. 8) The brain is really good at focusing on the primary objective…. And ignoring alarms on final approach… 9) Cost…. Figure out how much you want to spend on fancy reliable alarms… and add that to your flying budget… 10) read all you can about distractions… what causes it, and how to avoid it… it isn’t the classic having girls on your mind while in school… 11) Ever have difficulty making position reports on the radio at the various points around the traffic pattern? Ever skip one because you were busy doing something else? Ever hear other pilots stumble through their simple position report? PP thoughts only, not a cognitive therapist… Best regards, -a- Quote
ilovecornfields Posted October 18, 2021 Report Posted October 18, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said: I hate to be snarky, but if your greatest fear is landing gear up, you haven't flown enough. The only thing that gets hurt during a gear up is your pride and your wallet. Seriously, there is an advantage when flying a Mooney. The airplane is so slick that it is hard to get it slowed down to pattern speed. If you are approaching an airport and you just can't seem to get it slow enough, put the gear down. My Avidyne always tells me when I'm 500 feet above the airport, I always thank the Avidyne lady and check the gear. My gear horn works great. Sometimes when approaching an airport a little fast, and I'm still above gear speed, I just listen to the horn for a bit. I agree with Rich. Lots of things I worry about when I go flying. Landing gear-up isn’t one of them. Maybe it’s because I did my initial training 30 years ago in a “complex” airplane or maybe it’s because there are so many other things that are much more likely to hurt me. So far, doing my GUMPS check and checking the gear on short final EVERY TIME has worked for me. The devices exist. There are even some planes that will lower the gear for you if you forget (look at the Arrow). None of these should replace proper habits. Edit: If you’re familiar with James Reasons’s “Swiss cheese model” you’ll se why adding multiple layers of safety features still won’t prevent all accidents. Every layer of cheese still has holes in it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_cheese_model Edited October 18, 2021 by ilovecornfields 1 Quote
N201MKTurbo Posted October 18, 2021 Report Posted October 18, 2021 Does anybody know the statistics on gear ups? Is it us old codgers or the young bucks that are doing it? Does it relate to age, flying experience or is fate still the hunter? Quote
carusoam Posted October 18, 2021 Report Posted October 18, 2021 1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said: Does anybody know the statistics on gear ups? Is it us old codgers or the young bucks that are doing it? Does it relate to age, flying experience or is fate still the hunter? The guy with the best statistics for this is… @Parker_Woodruff (An invite for Parker to join us here) Expect age to have benefits and challenges at all ranges of the age spectrum… Fortunately… around here… age and experience have shown improved abilities over young and low experience… Don’t rush getting older just to improve your experience level…. Best regards, -a- Quote
RoundTwo Posted October 18, 2021 Author Report Posted October 18, 2021 1 hour ago, philiplane said:CHECK INSURANCE POLICY Ha ha. I love it. Maybe have it say “I just saved you 15% on your insurance, dumb a$$!” :-) Quote
RoundTwo Posted October 18, 2021 Author Report Posted October 18, 2021 1 hour ago, carusoam said: 8) The brain is really good at focusing on the primary objective…. And ignoring alarms on final approach… I guess having your spouse record the warning wouldn’t be a great idea. Maybe better to get Scarlet Johansson… “Hey there big guy… how about we lower some gear so we don’t turn this thing into a crumpled beer can?” R2 1 Quote
N201MKTurbo Posted October 18, 2021 Report Posted October 18, 2021 One thing, Flying full patterns goes a long way towards reducing gear ups. I always put the gear down when entering downwind. If I fly an abbreviated pattern, I have to consciously decide when it is going to happen. I have flown with other pilots who asked "Why didn't you aim for the base entry, they would have given it to you." and I answer "Because I don't want to F.... up". Can I fly any pattern entry known to man? Yes, like a pro! Will I do it to save 30 seconds, no. 2 Quote
RoundTwo Posted October 18, 2021 Author Report Posted October 18, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, ilovecornfields said: . Edit: If you’re familiar with James Reasons’s “Swiss cheese model” you’ll se why adding multiple layers of safety features still won’t prevent all accidents. Every layer of cheese still has holes in it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_cheese_model So, if every hole that got blocked is one prevented GU landing, isn’t that a good thing? Nothing can prevent ALL accidents except preventing the activity to take place. As pilots we all accept risks and as PIC, it is our responsibility to mitigate, not eliminate, risks. I agree, nothing is 100% foolproof for a sufficiently talented fool. R2 Edited October 18, 2021 by RoundTwo Quote
RoundTwo Posted October 18, 2021 Author Report Posted October 18, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said: Does anybody know the statistics on gear ups? Is it us old codgers or the young bucks that are doing it? Does it relate to age, flying experience or is fate still the hunter? Great question that hopefully Parker can answer. I’ll hazard a guess that it will be a barbell, but that’s a WAG. R2 Edited October 18, 2021 by RoundTwo Quote
N9405V Posted October 18, 2021 Report Posted October 18, 2021 The cost to develop and then retrofit a fleet of 50+ year old technology makes it prohibitive. Right now ForeFlight tells me through Bluetooth to my Bose that I’m 500’ agl. Maybe if you could add “check gear” to that message it could be one easy fix. Then again, not everyone flies with ForeFlight or an Efb that talks to you. Gear ups suck, but there are a lot worse things to do in an airplane.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote
RoundTwo Posted October 18, 2021 Author Report Posted October 18, 2021 (edited) 27 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said: One thing, Flying full patterns goes a long way towards reducing gear ups. I always put the gear down when entering downwind. If I fly an abbreviated pattern, I have to consciously decide when it is going to happen. I have flown with other pilots who asked "Why didn't you aim for the base entry, they would have given it to you." and I answer "Because I don't want to F.... up". Can I fly any pattern entry known to man? Yes, like a pro! Will I do it to save 30 seconds, no. Agreed, having checks programmed into discrete points around the pattern is the way I was taught. However, as you stated, not flying a standard pattern screws up that rhythm and we all know flying a standard pattern isn’t always going to happen, especially at a busy airport with lots of distractions. This is exactly my point and another great reason to have one extra “set of eyes” to help ensure an uneventful landing. R2 Edited October 18, 2021 by RoundTwo Quote
JWJR Posted October 18, 2021 Report Posted October 18, 2021 Forget the gear warning flashing lights and horns. With today’s technology we should be able to integrate a shock collar to give you some encouragement to drop that gear before turning base. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote
RoundTwo Posted October 18, 2021 Author Report Posted October 18, 2021 41 minutes ago, JWJR said: Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Very interesting video, especially the first half. Unfortunately, Mooney got way too much airtime. Extra alerts would hopefully reduce the “I forgot” from the presented 54%. R2 Quote
N201MKTurbo Posted October 18, 2021 Report Posted October 18, 2021 9 minutes ago, JWJR said: Forget the gear warning flashing lights and horns. With today’s technology we should be able to integrate a shock collar to give you some encouragement to drop that gear before turning base. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Wouldn't help... The day would come where things were busy and bad and you were trying to land and your semiconscious brain would be saying "What's that annoying shock? I'm trying to land a plane here!" 1 1 Quote
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