Western Smoke

[Ragsf15e]

The “smoke season” out west is putting a serious crimp in my summer flying plans.  I live in Spokane, WA and we’re surrounded by fires (and tfrs), but the air quality has stayed ok.  Flights to the coast have been ok because there aren’t many fires that way. I’d really like to get down to Carson City NV to see my parents, but there are huge smoke plumes filling up northern Nevada and southern Oregon coming from several fires.  
 

Ive used the ground air quality numbers and the noaa high resolution smoke forecast but I really want know the flight conditions at like 10,500’.  Last year I flew through some terrible, 1/2nm vis type smoke and don’t want to repeat that.  Has anyone crossed the northern sierras around 11,500’ or do you guys have another way to tell how high that smoke goes? I did call flight service and they were like tits on a boar…

 Thanks!

[N201MKTurbo]

I was flying back from Portland a few years ago. I planned a fuel stop at Carson City NV. The forecasts were all for clear skies. When I got there everything was below IFR minimums, for smoke, for 100 miles in all directions and I was low on fuel! I had to fly to Bishop CA before I could finally land. I had 4 gallons on board, Not good!

[Ragsf15e]

17 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I was flying back from Portland a few years ago. I planned a fuel stop at Carson City NV. The forecasts were all for clear skies. When I got there everything was below IFR minimums, for smoke, for 100 miles in all directions and I was low on fuel! I had to fly to Bishop CA before I could finally land. I had 4 gallons on board, Not good!

Yeah that’s another problem.  They don’t forecast the vis effects of smoke very well on the taf.  I landed in 1/2 vis last year at home in skc.  Not good.  Ifr mea is so high that I won’t go if it’s ifr.  I’m mostly worried about the smoke aloft enroute.  I couldn’t get above it last year and it was miserable.  Like being inside a bbq smoker.

[thinwing]

typically i have found unless directly over an active burn....13 to 15 k puts you in the clear....this alitude block has worked for every smoke situation ive encountered over the last 40 years of flying out west in the summer fire season.Ive also witnessed numerous plaintive radio calls from pilots requesting assistance while trapped in low vis.I assume these were non instrument rated pilots...smoke is really not that big of a weather issue..but I like to be above the smoke to keep the engine from ingesting soot

[Ragsf15e]

54 minutes ago, thinwing said:

typically i have found unless directly over an active burn....13 to 15 k puts you in the clear....this alitude block has worked for every smoke situation ive encountered over the last 40 years of flying out west in the summer fire season.Ive also witnessed numerous plaintive radio calls from pilots requesting assistance while trapped in low vis.I assume these were non instrument rated pilots...smoke is really not that big of a weather issue..but I like to be above the smoke to keep the engine from ingesting soot

And the passengers!

[aviatoreb]

I have been in east coast humidity + pollution haze in the mid atlantic so strong that it is extremely difficult to make out what's on the ground and decide to fly on instruments even though the ground reporting stations and asos report clear, 10mi vis.

Sadly, even here in upstate ny, where there is normally zero pollution year round, today we have haze from the west cost fires strong enough that there is a tinge of brown in the sky and even I could smell smoke when out exercising this morning.  I flew to the other Portland, Portland Maine, on Saturday and there was haze there too.

[Hank]

Just now, aviatoreb said:

I have been in east coast humidity + pollution haze in the mid atlantic so strong that it is extremely difficult to make out what's on the ground and decide to fly on instruments even though the ground reporting stations and asos report clear, 10mi vis.

You just described Alabama yesterday! Great visibility straight down, but out front, not so much. I spotted my home airport at about 5 miles around 2000 msl [TPA = 1700]. Normally I can find it at 12-15 miles. By the time I got the plane in the hangar, I was quite sweaty. But on the ground, visibility was pretty much unlimited, except when cut off by trees.

[Ragsf15e]

Out west there are places with 1/2 nm vis on the ground and lots of areas with less than 3nm flight vis at 10,000’, but forecasting where the flight vis (and ingesting soot/smoke) is bad doesn’t really happen.  There aren’t any clouds, it’s just vis reduced due to smoke. I’d love to see a weather product where I could select altitudes and see vis forecast ALOFT over a large area.

[Skates97]

My sister in law had a commercial flight from LAX to Reno cancelled last night because of smoke. 

[N201MKTurbo]

28 minutes ago, Hank said:

You just described Alabama yesterday! Great visibility straight down, but out front, not so much. I spotted my home airport at about 5 miles around 2000 msl [TPA = 1700]. Normally I can find it at 12-15 miles. By the time I got the plane in the hangar, I was quite sweaty. But on the ground, visibility was pretty much unlimited, except when cut off by trees.

You should come out here, the only thing obstructing your view of the airport are mountains and the curvature of the earth. people around here think they have to file when the vis gets below 50 miles. 

[jlunseth]

I live in Minnesota and I wish you people out on the left coast would quit smoking. I flew an Angel Flight to Brainerd MN earlier this summer, middle of the state, and the smoke was so thick at cruising altitude that it was IMC for about 40 miles south of BRD. Last week we had an Air Quality Alert on all the highway signs. Its not us. We are Norwegians out here, we may drink a lot of coffee but we don't smoke, not like you do. OK, we do a little grass in the fall, but not what you UC Berkeley types are thinking, the farmers on the western side of the state burn crop fields and prairie grass after the harvest.

[Tommooney]

Yesterday I flew from Portland TTD up the Columbia to The Dalles low for sightseeing then South to Sun River S21 for brunch. Clear on that leg. Then after brunch South it got progressively smokier at 10000' until almost IMC around Klamath Falls to Redding, then clear to SoCal. Not recommended for a VFR only pilot.

Take care

[Niko182]

Having flown in the exact conditions you're thinking about 2 times so far, my best advise is don't do it. I'm not a very good writer/storyteller but I'll do my best.

Starting with the first time, One of my buddies and I decided to go up to BC, Canada, to spend about 2 weeks riding some mountain bikes around Whistler and Vancouver. At this point I had about 215 TT and  about 85 hours in the Mooney. Flying from KSNA to KBLI was a non event. Tops of the smoke were around 9k, no issues for us since we were at 11 or 12k. Flew over it and just enjoyed the views. Overall a great trip. However that all went downhill on the return flight. First mistake was getting to the airport late and getting a pretty late start. We were passing Portland just as the sunset, and by the time we passed Eugene it was dark. As we continue on course, over Medford I start to smell smoke. At that point, albeit a little late at this point, I get over it and decide to land at Medford, and try to get home. The next day I tried 2 times to make it over the massive fires and the insane amount of smoke, surrounding Redding and Medford and simply didn't make it. Finally the third time, I took advantage of being able to spend 30 minutes over 12,500, and made it over the smoke. However what I didn't take into account was that the smoke might get higher as we continue south. It did exactly that and we got to enjoy spending about an hour and 15 minutes at 14,500ft with no oxygen and no IFR cert, technically still VFR but 2-3sm of visibility over 300 miles of flight isn't very comfortable for a VFR only pilot, scud running over smoke, at night over the mountains. Finally for the first time in the last hour saw lights on the ground, called it and landed in Sacramento. Getting home from SAC to SNA was a non event. That flight from Medford to Sacramento taught me probably more than anything I had learned from the first 200 hours. That was the first time I had ever been Solo and gotten myself into a situation I really regretted getting myself into.

 

The second time was last year from KBDN to KSNA (Bend Or, to Orange county, Ca). Leaving bend, it wasn't too bad from bend to Tahoe. Started by climbing up to 13.5 and just enjoying the flight. At this point I had an O2 system on board and was instrument rated, so it wasn't an issue. So the flight goes on and as we begin to pass Yosemite, the smoke like last time starts to rise. This time I ended up at 15 thousand feet, stuck above yet again another dense smoke layer all the way from 15thousand to the ground. At least I had oxygen this time, but I was lucky enough to find out on this exact flight that above a gps altitude of 16000ft and a density altitude much higher than that, the cannulas don't really deliver enough O2 and hypoxia kicks in. Let me tell you that it is far from fun to find out you're getting symptoms of hypoxia while stuck above smoke layer at 15 thousand feet while you're already using oxygen. Flying towards the coast helped a lot and the smoke came down to about 10k, but overall still one of the must un-enjoyable flights to date. Definetely not as dangerous as the flight listed above, but still uncomfortable.

 

My 2 cents. If you really want to have an enjoyable time with your parents, buy yourself a ticket for the flying bus and do the same for your parents, and go somewhere that doesn't have smoke. All in you'll still spend less than you would to fly yourself down to Tahoe. Flights are dirt cheap right now, and the discomfort that your parents and you will suffer flying in the tin can, will still be way better than having to sit inside away from the smoke. In nearly all cases I'll take flying myself over taking an airline, but being in the smoke is overall miserable, and flying in it is so much more miserable.

Edited July 26, 2021 by Niko182

[Hank]

2 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

You should come out here, the only thing obstructing your view of the airport are mountains and the curvature of the earth. people around here think they have to file when the vis gets below 50 miles. 

Yeh, I overflow an airport once because I didn't see it. Started looking 12nm out, near the edge of visibility like I was used to doing. Finally spotted the airport just before it passed under my wing and spiraled down. It was weird flying south of BIL and looking up at mountains on both sides!

[thinwing]

1 hour ago, Niko182 said:

Having flown in the exact conditions you're thinking about 2 times so far, my best advise is don't do it. I'm not a very good writer/storyteller but I'll do my best.

Starting with the first time, One of my buddies and I decided to go up to BC, Canada, to spend about 2 weeks riding some mountain bikes around Whistler and Vancouver. At this point I had about 215 TT and  about 85 hours in the Mooney. Flying from KSNA to KBLI was a non event. Tops of the smoke were around 9k, no issues for us since we were at 11 or 12k. Flew over it and just enjoyed the views. Overall a great trip. However that all went downhill on the return flight. First mistake was getting to the airport late and getting a pretty late start. We were passing Portland just as the sunset, and by the time we passed Eugene it was dark. As we continue on course, over Medford I start to smell smoke. At that point, albeit a little late at this point, I get over it and decide to land at Medford, and try to get home. The next day I tried 2 times to make it over the massive fires and the insane amount of smoke, surrounding Redding and Medford and simply didn't make it. Finally the third time, I took advantage of being able to spend 30 minutes over 12,500, and made it over the smoke. However what I didn't take into account was that the smoke might get higher as we continue south. It did exactly that and we got to enjoy spending about an hour and 15 minutes at 14,500ft with no oxygen and no IFR cert, technically still VFR but 2-3sm of visibility over 300 miles of flight isn't very comfortable for a VFR only pilot, scud running over smoke, at night over the mountains. Finally for the first time in the last hour saw lights on the ground, called it and landed in Sacramento. Getting home from SAC to SNA was a non event. That flight from Medford to Sacramento taught me probably more than anything I had learned from the first 200 hours. That was the first time I had ever been Solo and gotten myself into a situation I really regretted getting myself into.

 

The second time was last year from KBDN to KSNA (Bend Or, to Orange county, Ca). Leaving bend, it wasn't too bad from bend to Tahoe. Started by climbing up to 13.5 and just enjoying the flight. At this point I had an O2 system on board and was instrument rated, so it wasn't an issue. So the flight goes on and as we begin to pass Yosemite, the smoke like last time starts to rise. This time I ended up at 15 thousand feet, stuck above yet again another dense smoke layer all the way from 15thousand to the ground. At least I had oxygen this time, but I was lucky enough to find out on this exact flight that above a gps altitude of 16000ft and a density altitude much higher than that, the cannulas don't really deliver enough O2 and hypoxia kicks in. Let me tell you that it is far from fun to find out you're getting symptoms of hypoxia while stuck above smoke layer at 15 thousand feet while you're already using oxygen. Flying towards the coast helped a lot and the smoke came down to about 10k, but overall still one of the must un-enjoyable flights to date. Definetely not as dangerous as the flight listed above, but still uncomfortable.

 

My 2 cents. If you really want to have an enjoyable time with your parents, buy yourself a ticket for the flying bus and do the same for your parents, and go somewhere that doesn't have smoke. All in you'll still spend less than you would to fly yourself down to Tahoe. Flights are dirt cheap right now, and the discomfort that your parents and you will suffer flying in the tin can, will still be way better than having to sit inside away from the smoke. In nearly all cases I'll take flying myself over taking an airline, but being in the smoke is overall miserable, and flying in it is so much more miserable.

sorry to quote your entire missive..you mentioned cannulas were not delivering enough o2...what kind of metering device were you using?Scott oxymizer cannulas are designed to use their flow meters with duak scales,...left side for canulla right side for mask.You set the valve so the ball is either centered or ontop of alitude mark.Pulse oxymeters are used to ensure at least 90%

[Niko182]

1 hour ago, thinwing said:

sorry to quote your entire missive..you mentioned cannulas were not delivering enough o2...what kind of metering device were you using?Scott oxymizer cannulas are designed to use their flow meters with duak scales,...left side for canulla right side for mask.You set the valve so the ball is either centered or ontop of alitude mark.Pulse oxymeters are used to ensure at least 90%

I had Mountain High MH4 cannulas. I had it blowing pretty hard. I think fully open after I realized symptoms of hypoxia.

[Ragsf15e]

5 hours ago, Tommooney said:

Yesterday I flew from Portland TTD up the Columbia to The Dalles low for sightseeing then South to Sun River S21 for brunch. Clear on that leg. Then after brunch South it got progressively smokier at 10000' until almost IMC around Klamath Falls to Redding, then clear to SoCal. Not recommended for a VFR only pilot.

Take care

Thanks, that’s very helpful.  Your route is further west than mine by about 80 miles, so I think your conditions were probably even better on the west side of the fires.  I’m going to hold off for a couple weeks and see if it gets any better.

[LevelWing]

10 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

The “smoke season” out west is putting a serious crimp in my summer flying plans.  I live in Spokane, WA and we’re surrounded by fires (and tfrs), but the air quality has stayed ok.  Flights to the coast have been ok because there aren’t many fires that way. I’d really like to get down to Carson City NV to see my parents, but there are huge smoke plumes filling up northern Nevada and southern Oregon coming from several fires.  
 

Ive used the ground air quality numbers and the noaa high resolution smoke forecast but I really want know the flight conditions at like 10,500’.  Last year I flew through some terrible, 1/2nm vis type smoke and don’t want to repeat that.  Has anyone crossed the northern sierras around 11,500’ or do you guys have another way to tell how high that smoke goes? I did call flight service and they were like tits on a boar…

 Thanks!

How does it look in your area going east crossing the mountains of Idaho into Montana and then down south through Wyoming? I see the TFRs all around that area, as you mentioned, but curious about the ability to cross those mountains. I may be out that way soon and that appears to be the safest crossing point for the northern stretch of the Rockies.

[carusoam]

Any noticeable elevated CO reading to go with all that smoke?

Smoke and CO probably get separated from each other…

Best regards,

-a-

[Ragsf15e]

51 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Any noticeable elevated CO reading to go with all that smoke?

Smoke and CO probably get separated from each other…

Best regards,

-a-

None noticeable last year, but the smell and breathing of straight smoke was terrible.  Definitely try to avoid flying through the thick stuff!

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, LevelWing said:

How does it look in your area going east crossing the mountains of Idaho into Montana and then down south through Wyoming? I see the TFRs all around that area, as you mentioned, but curious about the ability to cross those mountains. I may be out that way soon and that appears to be the safest crossing point for the northern stretch of the Rockies.

Honestly I don’t know, but it looks bad.  Most of the smoke is blowing east.  I use this site for visualization of where it’s going but it doesn’t give you altitudes.  

https://hwp-viz.gsd.esrl.noaa.gov/smoke/index.html#

this is a shot from that site…

[N201MKTurbo]

So, a while back my FR (BFR) was due and my plane was still down for the engine work. Brice offered his plane for the BFR. We did the BFR north if KDVT. There were fire TFRs up in the mountains. We flew right next to one and did our stalls and steep turns (single engine just because my CFI likes to abuse me) in the smoke layer. 
 

look what was on the wings when we got back.

Edited July 27, 2021 by N201MKTurbo

[carusoam]

Shiny Black leading edges showing their value!

Great pic Rich.

Best regards,

-a-

[Ragsf15e]

8 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

So, a while back my FR (BFR) was due and my plane was still down for the engine work. Brice offered his plane for the BFR. We did the BFR north if KDVT. There were fire TFRs up in the mountains. We flew right next to one and did our stalls and steep turns (single engine just because my CFI likes to abuse me) in the smoke layer. 
 

look what was on the wings when we got back.

No doubt.  After my 1/2nm vis adventure last year the airplane just looked grey.  Gross.  I had to clean it for hours.  A little soot behind every rivet.  Strangely the oil analysis was normal but I hate to think about the engine breathing that too (and the pax)!

[N201MKTurbo]

10 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Shiny Black leading edges showing their value!

Great pic Rich.

Best regards,

-a-

I guess we could have cycled the boots and see if it knocked some of the ash off.

Edited July 27, 2021 by N201MKTurbo