Bravo Engine Overhaul Recommendations

[Boilermonkey]

It's time!    Our Bravo is due for it's first major overhaul.  The engine has 2240 hours since new, with the Bravo conversion about 1200 hours ago.   Borescope and oil analysis still are clean, but my partner and I think it's time this winter.

I personally watched a Bravo crash due to engine issues at KHFY serval years ago...so pushing the engine further or skimping on an overhaul are not open for much debate.  It's time and we want it done right!

I'd like to find a shop that has experience with the TSIO-540's and ideally Bravo's specifically.  Our A&P at KAID is happy to send the engine out, or we are open to flying it to a shop and having it done turn-key (I like that idea).  We're based at KBAK, so ideally somewhere east of the Rockies.

On the fence about reman versus OH.  My simple understanding is that aside from 0 time they are the same...unless the crank has an issue.

Recommendations on shops....   

Recommendation on other key items to consider.  If it's not standard I'd think the prop, prop governor, exhaust should be IRAN or OH.  Replace hoses, lines, engine/prop controls?

Lastly, are there ways to minimize down time?  I've read stories here about really long OHs...

[adverseyaw]

I went through the same calculus earlier this year when the cam in my 540 gave up.

I quoted from Western Skyways, Tim's in Long Beach, LyCon, and Lycoming. All of them have a 3-4 month turnaround time for overhauls (even longer for LyCon due to backlog from a COVID outbreak they're still recovering from) and even that's optimistic, more on that in a moment. I did not entertain a field overhaul, I only want an engine shop building my 540.

All of the overhaul options require you to send the engine in. Expect your bird to be down for 4+ months for overhaul. Could be closer to 6 when you add in delays and all the other stuff you have to do.

I opted for rebuild from Lycoming. The price was very close to the overhaul options, and they build the engine and ship to you before you have to take the old engine off. The engine removal and installation can be done at the same time, which cuts down on waits and cost, and your shop won't have to build a shipping crate. The engine is zero-time and has had two hours in the Lycoming test cell.

So, on ETAs. Parts availability is really bad right now. Everything is a mess. For example, IO-360 cylinders are backordered until September. Lord mounts take 6 weeks. My TIO-540 is almost done but held up on a few parts for weeks. I ordered it back in April and they gave a 12-week ETA and it's now we're at 14 with week-by-week slips. Take any dates with a grain of salt and expect delays.

Your best bet to minimize downtime is to get the engine built before you take apart your plane.

[moxfox]

It’s hard to beat Lycoming in Williamsport Pennsylvania.

[FoxMike]

If your engine continues to run acceptably, I would order an engine from Lycoming and be prepared to wait.  While waiting you need to get the hoses, engine mounts, etc. ordered so when the engine arrives you have everything.  The overhaulers are having trouble getting parts and something like exhaust valves guides not being available stops the progress of an overhaul.  You will be paying a premium by getting a reman but having the plane down for 4 to 6 months is a big cost also.

[donkaye]

I'm on my 3rd engine.  I want a zero time engine, so opted for the Lycoming Reman as they are the only ones allowed to zero time an engine. The difference is about 6-7K, but worth it in my opinion.  My last one was done at the end of 2019 and Lycoming was pretty much on schedule at that time, 8-10 weeks.  Mine was ordered at the end of September of that year and came around December 8th.  The exhaust system comes with the new engine, except for the tailpipe, which needed some work in my case.  I OH'd the alternators at the time of change.  New hoses should be preordered so you have them when the engine arrives.  Turnaround time when the engine arrives should be 2-3 weeks.  Top Gun in Stockton, California, a Mooney Service Center, has done all my engine changes.

[Bob - S50]

I don't have a Bravo, heck I don't even have a Mooney any more.  But our Cirrus has an IO-550 (but not turbo) that is currently 500 hours (Hobbs time) past TBO with no problems.  However, I have done some thinking about an overhaul for when the time comes.

Several shops will do an overhaul exchange including Western Skyways.

Several of them build to new engine tolerances rather than service tolerances so you essentially get a new engine but with some of the parts used.

Several of the shops balance the engine better than factory new tolerances.  That will result in a smoother running engine and fewer vibration related failures, not to mention passenger fatigue.

To me it isn't worth several thousand dollars just to get an engine log that says 0 hours, especially if isn't balanced as well.  When it comes time for us, I want minimum down time (exchange) and the smoothest running engine (dynamically balanced), for a reasonable amount of money.

I'm also hoping that by the time we need to overhaul, EMag will have their dual electronic ignition system certified.  Last I heard, they were hoping for about a year from now.

[HXG]

I also went factory Lycoming Reman. Over 150 hours in 8 months on it. Runs great. Very happy so far. I almost went with Western skyways which I’m sure I would have been happy with as well.  Factory Reman 0 time was $3-4k more than my lowest overhaul quote and nearly equal to a few quotes. 

Edited July 11, 2021 by HXG

[Davidv]

Is it true that the reman comes with a new turbo and intercooler? If so that's some pretty good value there as well.

[philiplane]

A factory reman comes with a new exhaust system, (except the tailpipe) since those are Lycoming parts, not Mooney parts. That is a significant and often overlooked benefit to the factory engine, whether rebuilt or overhauled.

[adverseyaw]

4 hours ago, HXG said:

I also went factory Lycoming Reman. Over 150 hours in 8 months on it. Runs great. Very happy so far. I almost went with Western skyways which I’m sure I would have been happy with as well.  Factory Reman 0 time was $3-4k more than my lowest overhaul quote and nearly equal to a few quotes. 

My quotes were similar. Lycoming overhaul was one of the cheaper overhauls. Lycoming rebuild was $6k more than their overhaul, but only $1k more than most of the other overhaul bids.

[MB65E]

Lycon! Even with the 5mo wait!

They do awesome work. I’ve done 6 or 7 engines with them. Zero issues. 

-Matt

[Boilermonkey]

When you include the exhaust and de-risking some of the gotchas with finding unserviceable parts in an OH...the reman makes a lot of sense.

 

Ok, so if we go the reman route.  Should I just use my normal A&P to hang the engine?  Or are their shops that people would recommend to do that part of the work too (and why)?

[FoxMike]

Tough question.  First does your A&P want to do the job?  He may have a day job that consumes a lot of time so he likes to do only small jobs.  Do you have a hangar that has enough space for a job this size.  Instead of asking a group about this you ought to talk to your mechanic he can better judge the situation.  The install is going to consume a lot more than a week.  You have to remove the old engine, maybe repair baffling or other things then install the new engine (33 hoses to install). BTW does your prop need an overhaul?   

[Boilermonkey]

He's done four new engines so far this year.  He's got a mid-size operation...usually 6-10 aircraft in his shop at any given time ranging from an oil change to major work.  He's willing and happy to do it.  I like the fact that he has multiple A&Ps working with him instead of just him and help.

I just didn't know if there were shops that specialize in this type of work that might be a better choice....especially given the complexity of this engine and aircraft.

[carusoam]

Similar experience and shop size almost as big as that FM described above…

I went factory reman and strongly considered using my MSC to do the work…

My local shop won out… They have really good Mooney experience, just not MSC Mooney centric…

Nearly a decade later, it was a great decision, using 20/20 hindsight…

The Ovation job was about 65amu… adding a pair of snails and requisite tubing… an Acclaim project would have been about 85amu…

Want to get it done in NJ?

Hope that helps… 

Best regards,

-a-

[Davidv]

16 hours ago, Boilermonkey said:

He's done four new engines so far this year.  He's got a mid-size operation...usually 6-10 aircraft in his shop at any given time ranging from an oil change to major work.  He's willing and happy to do it.  I like the fact that he has multiple A&Ps working with him instead of just him and help.

I just didn't know if there were shops that specialize in this type of work that might be a better choice....especially given the complexity of this engine and aircraft.

I’m not sure how far you are from Oasis in MN but I think they are very experienced with our engine and I know of at least one Bravo setup they are doing right now (factory reman).

If it were me I’d fly anywhere to have it done by the guys who have seen this engine in and out and hung it many times (doesn’t have to be oasis, just saying).  It’s such a long term “investment” that any inconvenience of flying far to get it done will be shortly forgotten if it’s done right.

[mike_elliott]

Being in Greenwood, Ind, where I went down 7 years ago on July 11 in a Bravo with a rebuilt and locally hung engine, I am sure the FBO lobby is full of stories for you. Might I suggest you have Eric at Oasis or Don at Maxwell aviation do this job. This isnt the time to let anyone learn. This is the accident that inspired the Bill Gilliland foundation to be set up to assist downed Mooney Pilots' families while I recovered at IU methodist trauma center. 

[Boilermonkey]

Mike, we haven't met, but I was there that day.  I waived at you form a Piper Arrow as you left the ramp and we were pulling in.  My heart broke for you that day.  I've followed the stories and happy to talk with you for the first time.   

That day is exactly why I'm asking these questions on the MS forum.  While I've found a great shop up at KAID, this job requires specific experience.  You're right Eric or Don are good choices.

 

 

[carusoam]

Sometimes the discussion of all the options…

Gives you the clarity that you want…

Double check to see that the new V-clamps show on the finished install…  

Good luck with the next steps…

Seven years have passed so quickly…

Best regards,

-a-

[jlunseth]

Having had the pleasure of losing the engine once and having the alternator coupler fall off into the running engine another time because of lack of local skill, I would not hang a new engine on my aircraft using anyone other than the two MSC’s mentioned. I am sure there are other good MSC, such as Lasar, I just have not had experience with them yet. I have Eric do all my work, even oil changes. It is very often small screw-ups that become big problems, the kinds of things mechanics who are not meticulous will overlook. I like adventure so much I want to live to go have another. I think Bruce Jaeger, who used to own Willmar Air Service, deserves some of the credit. Eric trained there. Bruce was not an A&P himself, but had a talent for training his mechanics to be meticulous and that is still in the culture at Oasis to this day.

[Boilermonkey]

Reman is on order.   Scheduled with Oasis.     Thanks for the advice MSers...planning for the best possible outcome.  

[affricate]

Same situation, I purchased a Mooney Bravo with a high time engine and it crapped out on me over W Texas. The mechanic in Junction, TX had a good relationship with Airmark in Ft Lauderdale so I went with them.  They did a great job and the wait was over 6 months. Their big issue was sourcing cylinders.

[Boilermonkey]

What was the total time when it crapped out?  How did it fail?   

We are at 2291 running well, no issues with the oil analysis, and borescope in April found no issues.

The engine is scheduled to arrive late December....

[affricate]

11 hours ago, Boilermonkey said:

What was the total time when it crapped out?  How did it fail?   

We are at 2291 running well, no issues with the oil analysis, and borescope in April found no issues.

The engine is scheduled to arrive late December....

2040.8 TT since new on this 1989 MB,

Exhaust valve in cylinder #2 separated & lodged in the turbo over Mason, TX. 

I was going to wait until July 2021 to overhaul but the engine dictated otherwise.

 

 

[Boilermonkey]

So is that a partial loss of power until you got it down? Does not sound like fun.  Were there any indications before failure?