Winter Flying >>

[Teddsgotwings]

Hello and happy post independence day!

I've been enjoying my '78 M20J for about 6 months now and am getting pretty familiar with it (110 hours logged in it thus far.) My home base is KSMO but I got into aviation and a Mooney because I'd like to have more access to the mountains this winter. My desired destinations are SLC, Tahoe, Jackson Wy, Mammoth occasionally (not a big fan of mammoth. Its been extremely windswept every time Ive gone) - basically I want to fly to anything larger than Big Bear. I'm working on my IFR cert now and I'm also getting some panel upgrades done by Air One Systems in NM at the moment. Upon completion of their work I'll have the following equipment in the panel:

- Dual gi275s (Dual GI 275 w/GMU 11, ADAHRS & ADAHRS + AP; GTP
59 included)

- GNC255 Nav comm

- MX170c (which was in the plane when I got it) 

- GNX375 GPS/Transponder

- GMA 350c audio panel

- GA35 WAAS 

- The Original King Bendix CDI (not sure the model #)

- The Century II AP- will upgrade to gfc500 next season most likely.

 

I believe that's all. I'd like to see if anyone here has any tips/suggested additions/suggested routes for me and my winter endeavors. I don't have de icing boots and I don't plan to fly during weather like that. I'll plan my trips before any storms. I just want to be sure I can get to these destinations safely with the equipment I'll have as well as the type ratings I'll have. I've flown to SLC end of last season for some spring skiing, super easy v21 flight. I haven't been to any other destination's mentioned though. Also, if there are any lesser known ski destinations within reach, I'd love to hear of those as well.

 

-TR

[Teddsgotwings]

39 minutes ago, philip_g said:

Well, you're probably not going ifr to any of them without a turbo. Maybe that's just me. Our j is an absolute dog above 6000

How so? I fly well over 6000' relatively often at 10-10,5 gph and 155-165kts, no problems. My last flight to ABQ was 9500-11500' (to get over some mountains right before reaching abq), 10.5gph, 160-175kts, 3 hr 54min: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N201XQ/history/20210609/1958Z/KSMO/KAEG/tracklog

 

[1964-M20E]

Climb does get slow when loaded close to gross as you get to 10,000 or above as you probably noticed.  Otherwise no reason you can't go above 130 if you have O2.  Biggest concern would be icing conditions we are not well equipped for that.

[N201MKTurbo]

I flew my NA M20F to all the places you mentioned. Mostly VFR, but IFR sometimes. I have flown IFR on the 16000 MEA airways over the Rockies. That being said, the piece of equipment that will benefit you the most is unavailable to you, that’s FIKI. 
 

With regard to icing and a NA airplane in the mountains, you have more options VFR than IFR. The reason I say that is because there are very few altitudes you can operate at IFR. If you do encounter ice (which you will) there are not a lot of outs.

[Teddsgotwings]

2 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I flew my NA M20F to all the places you mentioned. Mostly VFR, but IFR sometimes. I have flown IFR on the 16000 MEA airways over the Rockies. That being said, the piece of equipment that will benefit you the most is unavailable to you, that’s FIKI. 
 

With regard to icing and a NA airplane in the mountains, you have more options VFR than IFR. The reason I say that is because there are very few altitudes you can operate at IFR. If you do encounter ice (which you will) there are not a lot of outs.

Thanks for this! From what I'm gathering It sounds like I should only fly to the aforementioned destinations via a VFR flight plan as an IFR flight and the incurred risk is not really worth it. 

[grami-air]

I fly out of Phoenix and made the trip in my M20F about 2 dozen times during summer and winter over the last 15 years.  The highest I needed to be at was 10,500 to cross the Grand Canyon.  My 2 biggest concerns were icing and T'Storms.  Fortunately I never encountered icing but had to divert on several occasions for storms.  All trips were uneventful and a lot of fun.  

 

[Teddsgotwings]

1 minute ago, grami-air said:

I fly out of Phoenix and made the trip in my M20F about 2 dozen times during summer and winter over the last 15 years.  The highest I needed to be at was 10,500 to cross the Grand Canyon.  My 2 biggest concerns were icing and T'Storms.  Fortunately I never encountered icing but had to divert on several occasions for storms.  All trips were uneventful and a lot of fun.  

 

To which destination? 

[grami-air]

U42 south of SLC.  I've made a dozen trips into Reno and Carson City but not into Tahoe.  I wouldn't see that as being a problem.  I would think Jackson would be easy enough to do in good VFR, but I wouldn't even think about it in IFR without some kind of deicing equipment.  

[N201MKTurbo]

4 hours ago, Teddsgotwings said:

Thanks for this! From what I'm gathering It sounds like I should only fly to the aforementioned destinations via a VFR flight plan as an IFR flight and the incurred risk is not really worth it. 

You got to play it by ear. Sometimes IFR makes sense, but usually VFR is a better deal. 

[jlunseth]

We had a father and three sons from Minneapolis (where I live) who went on a ski trip in a J a few years ago. Rather than give you chapter and verse, which the family might read, here is the report. There are some lessons to be learned. What I will say, is that it is generally thought that the aircraft did not have sufficient climb capability fully loaded, to outclimb and survive mountain weather. http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2012/02/mooney-m20j-n201hf-luke-bucklins-former.html

[ilovecornfields]

@kortopates flies regularly to most of those places and would probably be the best resource for you. He has a turbo, though.

I have FIKI and no turbo but I do have “turbo performance without the turbo.” 

I used to go to Big Bear in our Arrow II and never had any problems as long as I watched the density altitude.

To me, an instrument rating is irrelevant for flying to Bishop/Mammoth or Tahoe/Minden. If I need my instrument rating to get in, I’m not going.

That being said, the weather in Tahoe has been absolutely gorgeous for the last few days. A shame I have to leave tomorrow.

[Matt Ward]

I live in Denver and fly a NA E. I have done most the mountain airports in the summer and nearly none in the winter. Usually winds aloft are too high; it’s not IMC. This isn’t something to try and hope for the best. Even with 2k clearance, these downdrafts can take you right to the crash site. 

[N201MKTurbo]

28 minutes ago, Matt Ward said:

I live in Denver and fly a NA E. I have done most the mountain airports in the summer and nearly none in the winter. Usually winds aloft are too high; it’s not IMC. This isn’t something to try and hope for the best. Even with 2k clearance, these downdrafts can take you right to the crash site. 

I bought my first Mooney when I lived in Denver. I was flying for work so I flew into the mountains all year. There are times in the winter you just have to drive, but you can make it more than you think.

A few times on those gloomy winter days with the low clouds, I would file IFR from my home drone to my home drone just to climb above the clouds and see the sun!

 

[Ragsf15e]

20 hours ago, philip_g said:

Well, you're probably not going ifr to any of them without a turbo. Maybe that's just me. Our j is an absolute dog above 6000

I had my F at 15,500’ cruising just ladt month.  Yeah, hot air and gross weight will slow down the climb considerably, but it depends on all the conditions.

As others said, you’ll be unlikely to use the ifr into the mountains in the winter.  The MEAs are too high and icing is a problem.  If you have to be ifr, it means you’ll be in the clouds, you’re forced high by MEAs, and boom, ice.  Vfr is definitely doable to them all.

PS, Mammoth isn’t usually that windy.  I’d try it again.  I lived there for 9 years and grew up skiing there.  Maybe give June lake a try too? Same airport, but different feel.

[GeeBee]

You are not going to climb out of Truckee or South Lake Tahoe IFR, non turbo. VFR, or VCOA departure yes. Reality is, there are few days like that and if there are, it usually involves icing conditions that you don't want to take part in. Used to have a daily run out of TRK sometimes twice a day in King Airs. If we had IFR climb outs we took the F90 rather than the C90 for single engine climb performance. 

[jaylw314]

Since IFR skiing trips are the mission you're talking about, do make sure your passengers know to prepare to cancel on less than 24 hour's notice due to weather.  Mountain IFR in the winter is no joke, and the west coast mountain ranges are icing factories, with our prevailing winds from the ocean.

[larryb]

I am based at KTRK and KRHV and regularly fly between the two. I had an '84 J for 5 years and currently have had my '97 FIKI Encore for 5 years. Here are a few things I've learned over those 10 years.

For the first couple years I did not have a hangar at Truckee. I learned that if I wanted to fly in the winter I needed to rent a hangar. The hangar keeps the plane snow and ice free and provides easy access to electricity for the pre-heater. Note that Truckee does not have a traditional FBO. The county runs the airport and provides FBO services, but there is no big heated community hangar that a transient can put their plane in. Truckee also does not have any de-icing services. 

My J did just fine at 11.5K or 12.5K to get in and out of Truckee. There is a flat area to the NE with a couple of reservoirs where one can gain altitude before departing over the mountain to the West. 

The IFR departures have a minimum climb gradient unless the ceilings are > 3000' where you can do the VOCA. I can meet the climb gradient with my turbo, but I cannot do that at the same time as meeting the minimum IAS while using TKS of 120 kt. So effectively I can't do an IFR departure into freezing clouds even with a turbo. While running TKS you must maintain at least 120 kt IAS to prevent ice from building on the bottom of the wings.

What the FIKI does for me is reduce the days around a storm that I cannot fly. During a storm the winds over the mountains are typically 80 - 100 kt, so you aren't going to go no matter what. But FIKI can make a difference the day before a storm or the day after a storm where clouds are present and you can't guarantee you can stay out of the clouds. There are several flights I have made there where I would not have attempted the flight without TKS but ultimately didn't need it. In 5 years I have only done one IFR approach into TRK while using the TKS.

Larry

[Ragsf15e]

3 minutes ago, philip_g said:

Let's be real. Eeking a vfr climb to 15,5 and flying a departure procedure IMC and clearing terrain are two different things. I lived in Colorado the last 20 years and had a 231, a 231 rocket, and a fiki sr22t. I've done a fair bit of vfr and ifr mountain flying. You're not going to depart Aspen, IMC, na, and fly the lindz. And Aspen is one of the easier airports.

Oh yes, I agree about ifr departures and flight over the mtns ifr in NA airplanes, but they are just fine for vfr.  He’s talking about skiing too, so winter.  If he’s talking about hiking Tahoe Rim Trail in July, we’ll have to caution him about density altitude issues, but cold air, vfr is just fine to most of these places.

Last month Getting to 15,500, I was about 400lbs under gross, but climb wasn’t less than about ~400fpm.  I realize that’s not a 231, but it’s all relative.  I learned to fly in a run out C-150 in the summer in Carson City, NV.  

[Teddsgotwings]

55 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Oh yes, I agree about ifr departures and flight over the mtns ifr in NA airplanes, but they are just fine for vfr.  He’s talking about skiing too, so winter.  If he’s talking about hiking Tahoe Rim Trail in July, we’ll have to caution him about density altitude issues, but cold air, vfr is just fine to most of these places.

Last month Getting to 15,500, I was about 400lbs under gross, but climb wasn’t less than about ~400fpm.  I realize that’s not a 231, but it’s all relative.  I learned to fly in a run out C-150 in the summer in Carson City, NV.  

Wow, thank you to all of the replies here! I am indeed talking about winter trips as I'm originally from New England and used to snowboard 50+ days a season but due to my career I am now in LA and maybe get out 7-10x a season. I miss the mountains. With that said, it seems that given my aircrafts capabilities and the West Coast winters, I should just scrap any flight plan that would involve any IMC/IFR conditions. The general consensus here seems that VFR during the winter is feasible but those days are probably few and far between. I don't really fly with anyone aside from the girlfriend so I'm always pretty well under gross. I've never been up to Tahoe but I have been to SLC and am somewhat familiar with that flight into U42. As always, i'll watch the weather. I'd definitely like to get up to KTRK as I hear its a beautiful scene with the mountains overlooking the lake. 

 

@Ragsf15e  I'll certainly give Mammoth another go this fall once it cools down a bit. My J is also in ABQ until end of month so I'm just in a holding pattern until it's done unfortunately.

 

Despite the IFR rating seeming to be a non factor in my winter flying endeavors, I'm still looking forward to putting it to use getting out of KSMO and the marine layer that graces us with its presence so frequently. There's nothing like being an excited new pilot with a plane and wanting to fly it on the weekend but being grounded due to OVC at 1200' almost daily for 60+ days.

 

Any more feedback here is greatly appreciated. I love the wealth of knowledge thats conveyed/shared within this community. Thank you all!

 

[kortopates]

I originally bought my Mooney for the same destinations and more - for rock climbing and skiing trips - but these are much better done in a Turbo. If you continue to pursue these kinds of trips a Turbo is in your future. Just getting to MMH IFR requires a MVA altitude of 16.5K. As a season pass holder with an airpoirt car up there I've done it many times; at all times of the year. There are a lot of perhaps new factors to consider besides just density altitude, such as mountain turbulence which very much reduces climb rates including especially avoidng the very turbulent rotors that may be invisible when winds over the ridge lines are strong. 

There actually is a good use for your IFR on these trips but not perhaps the way you may have originally thought.  From your base at SMO, trips to MMH and TRK it can be very beneficial to fly a composite flight plan of both IFR and VFR so that your departing and returning tothe  LA basin IFR and flying the Owens Valley portion with Joshua Approach VFR. There are other flight planning options up the central valley and over Mammoth Pass.  But with your J, landing at Bishop and having access to a car their would greatly enhance the frequency of making the trip successfully throughout the winter. 

I personally love MMH, although its still wetter snow being in CA, it's typically still offers the finest skiing we can get before going to UT or WY and you can't beat the skiing off the top.

PM me if you would like some personal help. 

Edited July 7, 2021 by kortopates

[Matt Ward]

23 minutes ago, kortopates said:

I originally bought my Mooney for the same destinations and more - for rock climbing and skiing trips - but these are much better done in a Turbo. If you continue to pursue these kinds of trips a Turbo is in your future. Just getting to MMH IFR required a MVA altitude of 16.5K. As a season pass holder with an airpoirt car up there I've done it many times all times of the year. There are a lot of perhaps new factors to consider besides just density altitude, such as mountain trubulence which very much reduces climb rates and especially staying away from very turbulent rotors that can be invisible when winds over the ridge lines are strong. 

There actually is a good use for your IFR on these trips but not perhaps the way you may have originally thought.  From your base SMO, trips to MMH and TRK it can be very beneficial to fly a composite flight plan of both IFR and VFR so that your departing and returning to LA basin IFR and flying the Owens Valley portion with Joshua Approach VFR. There are other flight planning options up the central valley and over Mammoth Pass.  But with your J, landing at Bishop and having access to a car their would greatly enhance the frequency of making the trip successfully throughout the winter. 

I personally love MMH, although its still wetter snow being in CA, it's typically still offers the finest skiing we can get before going to UT or WY and you can't beat the skiing off the top.

PM me if you would like some personal help. 

I have done a good bit of climbing trips in my E and really think it's about the perfect use of a small NA GA airplane.  Climbing gear isn't too big and I typically only have one partner with me.  For the summer trips, basically everything from Yosemite to City of Rocks to the Winds to Jackson is accessible without too much problem.  The winter is tougher for me (based in CO) as those prized destinations (Vegas, Joshua Tree) involve crossing the Divide.  Doable but less predictable for sure.

[Teddsgotwings]

33 minutes ago, kortopates said:

I originally bought my Mooney for the same destinations and more - for rock climbing and skiing trips - but these are much better done in a Turbo. If you continue to pursue these kinds of trips a Turbo is in your future. Just getting to MMH IFR required a MVA altitude of 16.5K. As a season pass holder with an airpoirt car up there I've done it many times all times of the year. There are a lot of perhaps new factors to consider besides just density altitude, such as mountain trubulence which very much reduces climb rates and especially staying away from very turbulent rotors that can be invisible when winds over the ridge lines are strong. 

There actually is a good use for your IFR on these trips but not perhaps the way you may have originally thought.  From your base SMO, trips to MMH and TRK it can be very beneficial to fly a composite flight plan of both IFR and VFR so that your departing and returning to LA basin IFR and flying the Owens Valley portion with Joshua Approach VFR. There are other flight planning options up the central valley and over Mammoth Pass.  But with your J, landing at Bishop and having access to a car their would greatly enhance the frequency of making the trip successfully throughout the winter. 

I personally love MMH, although its still wetter snow being in CA, it's typically still offers the finest skiing we can get before going to UT or WY and you can't beat the skiing off the top.

PM me if you would like some personal help. 

just PM'd you. Thanks for all the info!

[jaylw314]

6 hours ago, Teddsgotwings said:

Despite the IFR rating seeming to be a non factor in my winter flying endeavors, I'm still looking forward to putting it to use getting out of KSMO and the marine layer that graces us with its presence so frequently. There's nothing like being an excited new pilot with a plane and wanting to fly it on the weekend but being grounded due to OVC at 1200' almost daily for 60+ days.

Ironically in SoCal, the IFR rating will prove EXTREMELY useful in the early summer, when the June marine layer socks in the coastal areas every morning for weeks on end!

[kortopates]

3 hours ago, Matt Ward said:

I have done a good bit of climbing trips in my E and really think it's about the perfect use of a small NA GA airplane.  Climbing gear isn't too big and I typically only have one partner with me.  For the summer trips, basically everything from Yosemite to City of Rocks to the Winds to Jackson is accessible without too much problem.  The winter is tougher for me (based in CO) as those prized destinations (Vegas, Joshua Tree) involve crossing the Divide.  Doable but less predictable for sure.

Agreed, before I got my first Turbo Mooney I climbed extensively in OR, UT, ID, NM and WY (besides more local CA) using a rental Arrow. All of these trips were much longer than a weekend though and most included camping gear as well as climbing gear. Of course not enough performance to fly IFR with the high MEAs so all legs were VFR. But the Arrow is pretty much a dog compared to the Mooney E/F with the same engine. But since they were longer trips I had the flexibility to only fly when the conditions were prettty much perfect; confining flights to the morning hours. 

A weekend trip changes everthing; especually with a job. Flexibility to fly when conditions are best is no longer practical with the pressure to make the very limited weekend schedule work out. You're either flying up Friday afternoon/evening after wortk or very early Sat morning. Then plan to return after skiing or climbing sunday afternoon; typically after the winter winds have picked up or summer monsoonal TRS have been building and before things have settled down by around sunset or later. Without the performance of Turbo or big bore engine you also don't have the diversion capabilities around weather because of the mountainous terrain. Far more often you have to be willing to delay.  Don't get me wrong, its still doable within these constraints of course and I had many fantastic adventures yet with plenty of delays too. I never make it to CO except to Grand Junction to climb at Moab (at the time rental cars weren't available at CNY).  But plenty of slow climbs out of summer time high DA airports looking for thermals to help get up to cooler air helped focus my desire for a Turbo when I became an owner. First a 231 and then I finally had what I really wanted when I stepped up to a 252 which is now a coverted Encore. I didn't really even know what I missing either all those years till I learned how easy it was to fly out and above the summer time bumps in the Turbo and see all the TAS I gained flying in the higher teens and then the added  ease at flying around Wx once high that made a whole lot of flights possible. But I also have a friend that owns a C172 and a condo at Mammoth that on a perfect weekend flys it up there (usually spring or fall) - but its got to be just about perfect to make in and out in the C172 without lots of excitement doing it. 

[carusoam]

Great experience shared…

Go MS!

Makes you look forward to some winter flying….   

Best regards,

-a-