Urs_Wildermuth Posted October 28, 2011 Report Posted October 28, 2011 Just wondering. Range has always been something I like in an airplane, my "C" Model does not really deliver on that, 600 NM would be the furthest I'd comfortably go with the 52 USG tanks from experience. Longest I have done was Belgrade -Zürich, some 480 NM and we managed to get home with about 8 USG fuel remaining. I've been thinking of adding Monroys, bringing the total up to 88 USG but I found that while I can probably get 1100 NM out of that, I'll be flying alone due to weight. Are there any of you around who have Monroys on C or E models? What is your experience with WnB and what trips have you actually flown? Equally, what trips have you done with your "C" and 52 USG's regularly which have been pushing the range limits? What fuel flows and what power settings do you use to get best range vs speed? Also would like to hear from others with LR tanks. What is the realistic payload and how far do you take these airplanes? Quote
Parker_Woodruff Posted October 28, 2011 Report Posted October 28, 2011 no need to post twice, well see it Quote
Urs_Wildermuth Posted October 28, 2011 Author Report Posted October 28, 2011 Different question Parker The one is about the Ovations and general, the other for the vintage options only (Monroys e.t.c.) I for one do not usually read the Modern Mooney discussions as my "C" Model is definitly vintage. So I thought I'd separate the issues. Hope that's fine with you, otherwise I can delete one of the topics. Quote
Parker_Woodruff Posted October 28, 2011 Report Posted October 28, 2011 sure...didn't see the difference till down below...maybe just post in General Talk. Quote
rob Posted October 28, 2011 Report Posted October 28, 2011 I frequently stretch the legs of my C's 52 gallon capacity. My longest single leg is probably S27 to KBBW: 743nm, but I routinely do flights of 600+ nm. Long trips are flown VFR, as high as possible/practical, and leaned to peak. This puts me burning around 8-8.5 gph. I use a fuel totalizer to leave minimal fuel in the left tank while keeping the reserve in the right. At 8GPH, the C has a lot of fuel. Quote
KSMooniac Posted October 28, 2011 Report Posted October 28, 2011 On the email list there was a re-post of an old technique for flying LOP in carb'd engines. It required a carb temp gage as well as an engine monitor, but it seemed to be consistent and repeatable once the "magic" carb temp was discovered that would allow for LOP ops. That would potentially save you 1 GPH (or more) and extend your range nicely. Quote
Urs_Wildermuth Posted October 28, 2011 Author Report Posted October 28, 2011 Hi Jim, ah, ok, I did not realize you can install 64 gal bladders into the "C". That would make more sense than 88 gal with the Monroys weightwise, basically it gives you about 90 minutes extra fuel, just what is needed on top of the standard fuel. Preflight, I calculate with a reserve of 8 USG minimum and around 3-4 USG for climb to altitude, thereafter with 8.5 gph and 135 kt. This leaves me with 41 gal for the trip which ends up overhead 650 NM still air or 4-42 flight time. Those 12 gal extra would mean 190 NM and 1-24 more flight time, with equal reserves, that is some 840 NM total and 6 hours. Plenty I'd say. I agree on the Monroys, of course they will do a lot more in the way of range increase. 36 USG would give about 4-12 additional flight time which translates into 570 NM @ 135 kts, so a total of 1200 NM and roughly 9 hours flight time. However I for one would have problems with weight and balance as a consequence. 36 USG is around 200 lb vs 12 USG which is 72 lb. My current payload with full fuel is 580 lb, with Monroys it would be down to 360 lb. Unfortunately, I am not exactly a standard FAA male with well over 220 lb weight, so there is not much chance to stay legal unless solo with full Monroys. So far, I've not had problems with leaks, so the Monroy's would not scare me in that regard, but I hear they are pretty work intensive to install. Any experiences around here? Quote
Hank Posted October 28, 2011 Report Posted October 28, 2011 Wow, your C is loaded! My full-fuel payload is 658 lbs., or 670 if I leave expansion room in the tanks [all the time except for long trips]. My legs rarely exceed 4 hours, and are typically 7500-10,000 msl. I'm getting a full strip/reseal right now; bladders may last longer but are considerably more expensive. If my reseal lasts only half of the 41 years it just went, that will be in line with reported bladder life. I'm crossing my fingers and knocking on wood anyway. Quote
Urs_Wildermuth Posted October 28, 2011 Author Report Posted October 28, 2011 Empty weight is 1685 lb. I start wondering, if that is much higher than yours? 100 lb is a huge difference. I wonder where this comes from, if it is so different? Quote
Shadrach Posted October 28, 2011 Report Posted October 28, 2011 Quote: KSMooniac On the email list there was a re-post of an old technique for flying LOP in carb'd engines. It required a carb temp gage as well as an engine monitor, but it seemed to be consistent and repeatable once the "magic" carb temp was discovered that would allow for LOP ops. That would potentially save you 1 GPH (or more) and extend your range nicely. Quote
Shadrach Posted October 28, 2011 Report Posted October 28, 2011 Quote: Urs_Wildermuth Just wondering. Range has always been something I like in an airplane, my "C" Model does not really deliver on that, 600 NM would be the furthest I'd comfortably go with the 52 USG tanks from experience. Longest I have done was Belgrade -Zürich, some 480 NM and we managed to get home with about 8 USG fuel remaining. I've been thinking of adding Monroys, bringing the total up to 88 USG but I found that while I can probably get 1100 NM out of that, I'll be flying alone due to weight. Are there any of you around who have Monroys on C or E models? What is your experience with WnB and what trips have you actually flown? Equally, what trips have you done with your "C" and 52 USG's regularly which have been pushing the range limits? What fuel flows and what power settings do you use to get best range vs speed? Also would like to hear from others with LR tanks. What is the realistic payload and how far do you take these airplanes? Quote
Urs_Wildermuth Posted October 28, 2011 Author Report Posted October 28, 2011 Ross, I can't go on too many flights yet to really figure out what the story is about the performance of my "C". The only real longer trip we took was about 2000 NM in July, but with 2 weeks in between and headwinds both ways. Also, due to clouds we could not fly higher than about 5000 ft on one way and the way back was a constant up and down to avoid weather. All considered, we got the trip done in 15 hours flight time and an average of about 9.5 gph and 130 kts GS over all. The engine has been zeroed that spring and the aircraft had about 50 hours when we left for the trip, 65 when we came back. This average includes everything added up (including climb, descend and all in all 4 stops on the way) so I'd think the average cruise GS would have been at 135 to 140 kts. I have the impression that before the engine was overhauled (and before it started to act up as it did which made the overhaul necessary) it ran differently and more economically, with better speeds. But that may well be subjective, as I had very few hours on the aircraft at that stage. Right now, we are running the aircraft at 22" and 2300 RPM at around 5000 ft, as this was what the previous owner and FI recommended. That produces around 9.5 GPH. In this area here we can hardly ever fly any higher due to airspace restrictions (VFR). I'd really need to go flying and experiment with other settings to see what we could realistically get. Quote
Hank Posted October 28, 2011 Report Posted October 28, 2011 Quote: Urs_Wildermuth Empty weight is 1685 lb. I start wondering, if that is much higher than yours? 100 lb is a huge difference. I wonder where this comes from, if it is so different? Quote
Hank Posted October 28, 2011 Report Posted October 28, 2011 Urs-- I use the charts in the Owner's Manual to determine exact settings, but from memory these are typical: 3000 msl 23"/2300 5-6000' 22"/2400 >~7500' WOT/2500 NOTE: WOT means leave it full forward after climb to accelerate, then pull back just enough to make the needle move. This is supposed to create turbulence for improved fuel atomization and more even distribution. I'm typically 50º ROP, but at 9000' and above I run close to peak. The MAPA PPP notebook give the 'critical number' for our engines to be 46. [Critical Number = MP + RPM] This should yield ~65% power; for variations, ± 3 = ± 10%. In my case, 20" + 25 [for '2500'] = 45, less than critical so leaning is easier. NOTE: these numbers are from memory, but they sound right. Quote
KSMooniac Posted October 28, 2011 Report Posted October 28, 2011 Quote: Shadrach Scott, I don't see how running LOP with carb heat is going to save 1GPH over ROP/peak unless he's at 3K or lower.He's already planning 8.5gph. at 7.5LOP hed' be at 62ish% power. I think it's likely that he could comfortably run at Peak EGT at altitude and he's not going to save 1gph from there in a carb'd engine without noticeable roughness and significant speed loss. Maybe .2 or.3 gph at >10K with a bit of speed loss. Quote
orangemtl Posted October 28, 2011 Report Posted October 28, 2011 'running 8.5gph in my J at cruise...' "Lucky b------ds", mused the Acclaim pilot, as he glumly poured $500, or 5 hours' worth of fuel into his aircraft.... Quote
Hank Posted October 28, 2011 Report Posted October 28, 2011 But you get there so much faster, and get to go above much of the weather that I slog through slowly . . . So what if your fuel bill is over twice mine? Didn't you buy a Mooney to go fast ? My two-leg flight last week was planned at 743 nm, and only had minimal ATC vectors; took me 2:20 + 3:30 = 5:50 to get there, and ~55 gallons in my 52-gallon tanks [i'm guessing at what was left]. Feeling better now? Quote
rbridges Posted October 28, 2011 Report Posted October 28, 2011 Quote: orangemtl 'running 8.5gph in my J at cruise...' "Lucky b------ds", mused the Acclaim pilot, as he glumly poured $500, or 5 hours' worth of fuel into his aircraft.... Quote
KSMooniac Posted October 28, 2011 Report Posted October 28, 2011 Quote: orangemtl 'running 8.5gph in my J at cruise...' "Lucky b------ds", mused the Acclaim pilot, as he glumly poured $500, or 5 hours' worth of fuel into his aircraft.... Quote
orangemtl Posted October 28, 2011 Report Posted October 28, 2011 Yeah; just whining, that's all. We should all have such big problems. Just trying to make the 8gph guys feel better, is all. Yes, I have run LOP from time to time, but I'm still working my way along; I can often manage fuel consumption closer to 17-18, so long as I'm not up there trying to break the sound barrier, with the manifold at 30. Planning to leave shortly for SD (KMYF) from KHII Lk Havasu in an hour or so for a Saturday conference. Anticipating 1:10 for 180NM, and home for dinner tomorrow after the mtg finishes at 3P. Things could be much worse. Enjoy the weekend. Quote
KSMooniac Posted October 28, 2011 Report Posted October 28, 2011 Things could certainly be much worse! We could have 182s. Enjoy your trip and nice weather! Quote
Piloto Posted October 28, 2011 Report Posted October 28, 2011 I used to own a 1966 M20C with Monroy LR tanks. You actually get 90 gallons useable when you let the fuel settle for 10 minutes. On my trips from KFXE to TJIG (900nm non stop) it will burn 60 gallons average. Never had any problems with CG since the tanks are on the wing. I had it overgross by 100 pounds and found no significant issue except for climb performance. Without the LR I had to stop for fuel and do Customs twice. Once I had the Monroy tanks no need for fuel stop or Customs (PR is US territory). I also have the LR tanks on my current M20J and can do CYYT-LPAZ or one stop coast to coast (SFO to NY) with no extra ferry tank required. If you are into long distance flights Mooneys are the way to go. Just don't forget your relief equipment, it can be embarrasing not having it. Jose Quote
jetdriven Posted October 28, 2011 Report Posted October 28, 2011 Critical number of 46? I think next flight I am going to run 1900 RPM and 27". Maybe 2700 RPM and 19". Same 46. Book shows different TAS and fuel flow numbers. But all the same right? Quote: Hank Urs-- I use the charts in the Owner's Manual to determine exact settings, but from memory these are typical: 3000 msl 23"/2300 5-6000' 22"/2400 >~7500' WOT/2500 NOTE: WOT means leave it full forward after climb to accelerate, then pull back just enough to make the needle move. This is supposed to create turbulence for improved fuel atomization and more even distribution. I'm typically 50º ROP, but at 9000' and above I run close to peak. The MAPA PPP notebook give the 'critical number' for our engines to be 46. [Critical Number = MP + RPM] This should yield ~65% power; for variations, ± 3 = ± 10%. In my case, 20" + 25 [for '2500'] = 45, less than critical so leaning is easier. NOTE: these numbers are from memory, but they sound right. Quote
M20F Posted October 29, 2011 Report Posted October 29, 2011 http://www.mooneyspace.com/index.cfm?mainaction=posts&forumid=2&threadid=1050 Mooneys can take you far! I am planning to put long range tanks in my F next year, can never have enough gas. Quote
orangemtl Posted October 29, 2011 Report Posted October 29, 2011 I dream of taking 730ML to Nova Scotia, then Greenland, then Scotland one day. Loaded to the gills w/safety equipment, ferry tanks and an experienced ferry pilot. Ask me in 10 years: I'll tell you how it went. Quote
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