Insurance Renewal Time...

[Becca]

Quote: 201er

I thought the main liability purpose of keeping an airplane as an LLC is so that when you get sued for something else that the plane isn't seized rather than whatever is under the direct involvement of the actual plane.

[pjsny78]

Quote: Becca

[PTK]

Quote: Bnicolette

Okay, well now you guys have me really worried about this and perhaps I should switch over to the smooth coverage.  Is this just for passengers or is also for persons and property on the ground?  I never have anybody in my airplane beside family and occasionally friends so I am more worried about possible things out of the airplane.

[PTK]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

It's basically to keep insurance companies from competing for the same business.  It also helps to ensure that the same risk is treated equally, regardless of the agent.

Where an agency sets itself apart is by providing detailed, accurate information - especially in a "special risk" scenario, like a student pilot buying an Acclaim.  The agent who produces a comprehensive "training plan" that shows how the Insured is organized and ready to be a safe pilot may receive better results.

[danb35]

Lots of misinformation here about LLCs, protection, and liability for others' debts.  First off, IAAL,BIANYL.  If you want legal advice, consult with an attorney in your jurisdiction.

That said, and to repeat what's been stated here a few times, an LLC or corporation will not do anything to protect you from liability when you're flying.  If I'm flying a plane and crash it, I'm on the hool, no matter who owned the plane (me, an LLC or corporation owned by me, a friend, an FBO, whatever).

An LLC (or corporation) probably won't do anything to reduce your tax liability, though this is going to be something that varies a lot from state to state.  If my state has a personal property tax that they charge on my plane, the difference would be that my LLC owes the tax instead of me.  In some states, property owned by a business is taxed at a higher rate than property owned privately, so you may be liable for more tax.  The LLC/corp may make it harder for the state to find you, though--if I form a DE Corp, set up an address in DE, and list that address on the aircraft registration, it means that my state/county won't find the plane by trolling the FAA registration database.  I still legally owe the tax, but it's harder for them to find me to ask for it.

A corp/LLC may protect you from liability if somebody else is flying the plane.  A corp will generally shield you from liability for the wrongdoing or negligence of others (as long as you didn't have anything to do with it).  So, if you are in a partnership/co-ownership arrangement, or considering doing that, this is something to consider.

A husband is not automatically liable for the debts of his wife (nor the wife for her husband) in any state, as a matter of federal law.  Each person is responsible for his own debts, in contract and in tort, unless he agrees to also be responsible for somebody else's.  However, if I go down, and my insurance is inadequate to pay the harm to others, they (those who were harmed/killed) can go after anything I own to satisfy the debt.  If I'm killed in the crash, they can recover from my estate to the extent of my property.  My heirs (spouse, kids, or anyone else) aren't responsible for that debt (i.e., they don't have to pay out of their own pockets), but it may mean they'll get nothing rather than what I'd intended they get.

[danb35]

Quote: allsmiles

The agents are the middleman and really need to get out of the way. They only serve to drive costs up. What we need is direct sale of insurance from the underwriter to the pilot.

[PTK]

Dan, you are feeling just fine!

We need more of them not just one or two. And I don't agree with the notion that someone needs to be there to field phone calls. My experience with agents has been that they really don't want to be bothered! They tell you call the insurance co DIRECTLY. You end up having to make a second call to get your question answered. So you end up feeling like the proverbial "smacked ass." Pay the agent's salary only to be told "don't bother me!"

Been there, done that! 

[danb35]

Hmmm...  Have you ever had that experience with your aircraft insurance?  Can't say that I have, and I've called with questions a few times.  Come to think of it, I never had that experience when I called with questions on my auto or home policies, when they were through an agent (they're with USAA now, but USAA unfortunately doesn't write aircraft insurance).

And yes, someone does need to be there to field phone calls from customers.  If the agents won't do it, that's a separate problem, but there needs to be a point of contact.  I don't know that it matters much whether insurers do it in-house or outsource it, but it's a function that needs to be provided for, and of course paid for.  Maybe there's a market for a discount, Internet-only aircraft insurance agency, but I suspect most people want to be able to call, even if they'd do most of their business online.

[rorythedog]

Quote: jetdriven

I heard that if you submit quotes through an agent then the insurance companies will not give quotes to the second agent.  Plus all the insurance companies access a database where they know who quoted whom and how much.    

Sounds  like a cartel. 

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: allsmiles

Hey Patrick! Do you really feel an LLC offers real protection? I have the airplane in an LLC also but sometimes I wonder. What's there to stop them from coming after us personally? And we are exposed because there is no umbrella policy available for aviation.

[Parker_Woodruff]

A couple notes-

- An agent should NOT be telling you to call the insurance company.

- Falcon handles USAA's aviation clients. USAA benefits from this and so do its customers (USAA members that get an annual dividend).

[PTK]

Quote: danb35

Hmmm...  Have you ever had that experience with your aircraft insurance?  Can't say that I have, and I've called with questions a few times.  Come to think of it, I never had that experience when I called with questions on my auto or home policies, when they were through an agent (they're with USAA now, but USAA unfortunately doesn't write aircraft insurance).

And yes, someone does need to be there to field phone calls from customers.  If the agents won't do it, that's a separate problem, but there needs to be a point of contact.  I don't know that it matters much whether insurers do it in-house or outsource it, but it's a function that needs to be provided for, and of course paid for.  Maybe there's a market for a discount, Internet-only aircraft insurance agency, but I suspect most people want to be able to call, even if they'd do most of their business online.

[PTK]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

Hey Patrick! Do you really feel an LLC offers real protection? I have the airplane in an LLC also but sometimes I wonder. What's there to stop them from coming after us personally? And we are exposed because there is no umbrella policy available for aviation.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: allsmiles

[danb35]

Parker, PM for you.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: danb35

Parker, PM for you.

[PTK]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: allsmiles

[aviatoreb]

Quote: pjsny78

I am not an attorney nor do I know much about plane insurance. I do know however that to protect your assets and income. One should consider registering your aircraft to a sheltered position. Such as a LLC.

This is the first thing I did before even taking possession of my plane to protect my family from an unforeseen event that may or may not be deemed my fault. It’s a low cost insurance policy that may save your butt. I’d be happy to hear what an experienced attorney may recommend.

[danb35]

Quote: aviatoreb

Even a small number of owners with an LLC can all get sued.

[Becca]

Quote: pjsny78

[KSMooniac]

Quote: danb35

The bottom line is that the best defense is to carry adequate insurance.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: Becca

 And if you rent, you can buy supplimental rental insurance.

 

[N601RX]

Parker,

Do you have any insite on what insurance companies call "Make and Model"?   Over the phone my agent told me M20 was the make and model and they didn't care if it was time in an E or F. He told me this off the "top of his head", so I'm not sure if he really knew or not.  From earlier post in this thread it seems other people have been told that the time was specific to an E, F or other model.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: N601RX

Parker,

Do you have any insite on what insurance companies call "Make and Model"?   Over the phone my agent told me M20 was the make and model and they didn't care if it was time in an E or F. He told me this off the "top of his head", so I'm not sure if he really knew or not.  From earlier post in this thread it seems other people have been told that the time was specific to an E, F or other model.