GTN 650/750 User Defined Holds

[Dave Piehler]

So, yesterday I was having an off-line discussion with another member of the Mooney-Tech mailing list (dinosaurs like me still lurk there) about advanced avionics and tasks which can be overlooked or not understood.  One of those for me was programming Holds.  Not that I get many holds here in the Midwest, but better to understand than fumble in the cockpit if I get surprised.

First pass at enlightenment:  GTN 650/750 Pilot's Guide.  Useless.  Only tells how to fly a hold already programmed in an approach.

Second level:  Youtube.  Some helpful videos on programming holds that aren't part of approaches, including Martha doing her usual thorough job.  All those resources talk  about programming a hold at a waypoint.  Pretty easy.  Go to the Flight Plan page, select the waypoint (or add it to the flight plan), and press the button marked "Hold at Waypoint."  Cool.  But what if ATC does like they used to all the time -- issues a hold on a VOR radial at some distance from the VOR?  Not one video I found explicitly covered this.

Third level:  Play with the GTN 750 simulator from Garmin.  Enter a flight plan and go to the Flight Plan page.  Click Add Waypoint.  Enter a name for your hold point.  Suppose it's using the Nodine VOR, and you're told to hold east on the 090 radial at 25 miles.  Enter ODI090 for the waypoint name.  Of course there's no such data base waypoint, so the unit will ask you if you want to create one.  Choose Yes, then when the Create User Waypoint page comes up, press Position Type and select Radial / Distance.  You can then enter all that info and create the waypoint.  When you tell it ok it'll take you back to the Flight Plan menu, where you can select the new waypoint, then choose Hold at waypoint.

It actually takes less time to describe the process than to do it.

So I learned something!  Perhaps there is hope after all.

Dave Piehler

[Bob - S50]

You need to download the current version of the pilot guide.  The version I have tells you how to load a hold at a waypoint on page 4-14.

[Jerry 5TJ]

Exercises to do on long cross-country flights while George is flying:  

(1) Program a waypoint ahead, add a hold to the GTN750 at that waypoint and then delete it before arriving at the hold.  Get creative and challenge yourself:  “hold SE on the 123 radial, left turns, 7 mile legs.”  Extra points if you can figure out the hold entry yourself, but if not, don’t despair, the 750 can determine that.   

(2) Fly using VORs instead of GPS for a few legs.  The GTN750 will actually do that (amazing), but I had to relearn the button pushes. 

(3) For real amusement, see if you can find a working NDB and try to fly to and from it.  Imagine you’re Ernie Gann flying AM21.

 (4) Tell NY Center you want no-gyro vectors to your destination near Lincoln, Nebraska & let me know how it goes. 

[kortopates]

Dave, see the “GPS navigator comparison” thread going on now. I’d give a link but can’t really do that via Tapatalk.
Mark also demonstrates that in his video. But it’s my contention DME fix holds are a thing of the past except for the instrument written. At least in my area out west they seem to stick to rnav waypoint names exclusively if not just VORs.


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[gsxrpilot]

@Dave Piehler Here is the video you need to see. Mark does a great job of explaining it.

 

 

[Dave Piehler]

43 minutes ago, kortopates said:

But it’s my contention DME fix holds are a thing of the past except for the instrument written. At least in my area out west they seem to stick to rnav waypoint names exclusively if not just VORs.

Paul,

I wonder if it's all about equipment codes.  If a controller sees a /G I suspect you're correct that s/he'd use waypoints defined on the charts.  If no /G and simply RNAV (I even forget what that code is), for example, if there's only a working KNS 80, then one might get a DME hold.  Of course, as soon as I make that assumption without checking the AIM or 7110.65 I'll get issued a DE hold.

As far as arcane knowledge being found only on the written, what fun is pedantry if not solely for it's own sake?

Dave

[Dave Piehler]

gsxrilot:

Thanks!  Neat demo, and the Along Track button teaches me something else that's new.  I assure you I searched for info on holds before I posted, but that one escaped me.  (Funny that it was just created yesterday, the same time I was thinking of this.)

Dave

 

[carusoam]

Often...

A good topic arises from other experience picked up in the days before..

When it arises a couple of times... it may occur after reading the same article published in a magazine, or a New product gets advertised...

Best regards,

-a-

[kortopates]

21 hours ago, Dave Piehler said:

Paul,

I wonder if it's all about equipment codes.  If a controller sees a /G I suspect you're correct that s/he'd use waypoints defined on the charts.  If no /G and simply RNAV (I even forget what that code is), for example, if there's only a working KNS 80, then one might get a DME hold.  Of course, as soon as I make that assumption without checking the AIM or 7110.65 I'll get issued a DE hold.

As far as arcane knowledge being found only on the written, what fun is pedantry if not solely for it's own sake?

Dave

The 7110.65Y is unchanged with respect to issuing holding instructions at a fix or waypoint.  I can only relay my experiences with our controllers at SOCAL. Although its the biggest and busiest TRACON in the world, its not the only one. But our controllers say they are too busy to look up our equipment codes and will assume everyone is RNAV/GPS equipped when flying IFR; since the vast majority are. As a Lead FASTeam rep at our FSDO I am contact with the TRACON 3-4 times years scheduling  them to give Wings seminar talks to our pilots as well as taking my students in for TRACON tours and someone always ask why they'll clear them to some waypoint when they don't have GPS and they make a point of reminding pilots that's its their responsibility to just let them know if they can't  accept a clearance because they're not /G and the controller will issue alternate instructions. So at least here out west, controllers just assume we're all /G till we ask for different instructions and as a result we'll always here the RNAV waypoint name used rather than a DME fix. Afterall, a waypoint name takes less bandwidth as well.  

[MoonFlyer68]

I will begin my stating that this event did not happen in the United States, I was in Djibouti Africa.  Bad weather there is quite rare and even on a good day the controllers leave something to be desired if there is more than about 2 or 3 aircraft in the airspace.  One day they had an isolated storm pass through and brought the airfield operations to a halt.  Nasty weather, lots of turbulence and heavy rains.  The controller was obviously struggling with all the different aircraft.  No sooner would they give an instruction to a pilot, the pilot would say "unable due to weather".  Listening to all the other traffic I was able to make a basic picture in my head of where people were and at what altitude.  Rather than add to the task saturation, I checked in with a "request".  I requested to hold 20NM east of the VOR at whatever altitude I was at.  Without hesitation I was "approved as requested" and programmed my ProLine21 FMS for the hold.  So in truth, the last time I did a DME fix hold was not actually assigned by ATC, but requested by me.