Comparing the 757-200 and the 737 Max10

[GeeBee]

You may remember Captain Robert Buck, famed author of Weather Flying and other great books. He was once asked by a reporter what is the greatest threat to air safety. Without missing a beat he answered, "The Harvard MBA". 

 

 

[PT20J]

Looks, like the MAX isn’t Boeing’s only problem.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boeing-737max-nma/boeings-new-ceo-orders-rethink-on-key-jetliner-project-idUSKBN1ZL2RM

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[cliffy]

What an interesting thread!

GeeBee and StevenL757 your insights go right along with mine. I too have flown both the 73 and the 75 (ck airman on both, BUT my 73 time is in steam gauges and not TV screens:-)

Robert Buck was right on with his comment. My history goes back to the days of Bob Six at CAL (who I met during my time there), and Maytag at National and Eddie Rickyback  at Eastern and other of the like. These men were Titans in the airline business then. With them it was personal and their reputations went with the performance of the airline. Then the "suits" came in (as we called them) and had their compensation delivered on quarterly profits. Two years of good quarters and they were gone to other conquests. At least that's the way it seemed to those in the trenches. 

75? Best performing "big" airplane I ever flew. Favorite airplane? 727 by far. Longest flight (air time) in the 737-300 5+17 MCI to SFO.

Flew a 727 with 8+30 range at one time. 

Once did the Loop Departure from LAX in a 757-200 on a ferry to LAS and from pushing them fwd for T/O to level at 12,000' was 2 mins+56 seconds. That included the ground roll!

Early Lear 20 series held a record to 41,000 of 7 mins and 30 seconds IIRC, been a lot of years since I flew them but we went to 41 as a regular operation to get fuel burns down for range, ol' man Lear used to go a lot higher (and not tell anyone-no alt reporting xponders then) IF he could keep the engines running, They had to be trimmed just perfect to keep the fires lit way up there. 

I agree that customer base and fuel economics drove Boeing to use the new engine (or try to)  A different pipeline for support of a different variant is very costly. Training and schedules becomes a big headache as each different airplane is added to the fleet (think of all the different planes Eastern was flying when it went under).  That wasn't the only problem at Eastern but it was a big contributor. 

Their biggest failure was in not telling the crews of the  new trim system and having a single point of failure for it. Now it may be grounded until this summer. Their reputation may never recover. 

If one remembers, they took a slight hit in rep way back when they did the wing break test on the 787, First time Boeing ever failed that test , it failed about 1.5% below engineering predictions. The feds allowed them to strengthen without a retest to meet requirements. 

There had been stories and rumors for several years about the production quality coming down the production line.  So I don't think the MAX failure was the start of Boeing's recent years problems. Suits may well have played a part.

Maybe a new CEO and section heads might be able to correct their path. 

Have a rating in the 'bus also.    I'll still go Boeing when possible.   

 

[carusoam]

great insight Cliffy, thanks for sharing it...

 

 

I wrote this yesterday and held onto it...   

There are Suits at the top... but sometimes somebody closer to the bottom knows what is going on and may need to take a stand...

Moving corporate headquarters always raises an eyebrow...

There are a couple of Great American Companies that have spent time with their back against the wall...

With the aid of 2020 hindsight...

1) Boeing, two crashed planes for the same reason... because one wasn’t enough... this is confusing, because it is a great company, making a great product... (watch the stock price to see if the owners believe what the management is saying...) old CEO is out, new one just started weeks ago...

2) General Electric, billions of dollars cleaning up PCB waste disposed into the rivers around the country... (Stock in the tank, has a few more years before it can see the light of day)

3) GM, a faulty cheap ignition switch with known problems, keys fall out of the switch, lock the steering wheel, turn off the ignition and airbags... (stock in the tank, hasn’t seen the light of day in a decade)

4) Philip Morris,  well... you have to die from something... 

How many customers have to needlessly die before somebody in sales stands up and says we can’t hide this anymore.... it is bad for business...

Of the companies above, GE stands out as not directly killing their customers... they just killed off their balance sheets with non-standard accounting practices... nobody knows what their long term costs are going to be... people are living longer and long term health issues are getting more expensive...

Somebody in their risk analysis department didn’t account for smoking cessation Eliminating a bunch of mid-life heart-attacks...  

Often the truth becomes known after the CEO gets ousted... the first quarterly meeting run by the new guy is interesting... it is called something like the “Kitchen Sink maneuver”.  They expose all the wackiness that occurred, tack the blame on the outgoing captain, and throw in the kitchen sink for good measure...

They must teach honesty being the best policy at Harvard Business School... it is pretty clear after things go awry...

So what’s the solution for the MAX challenge... an additional AOA sensor, and some mandatory Transition Training for those pilots with only a few hundred flight hours...?

Or is this challenge deeper than the low cost foreign airline being at risk?

 

I bet there is employees that see this stuff as it is happening... 

Back in the day.... there was so Many paper files that needed to be destroyed to cover tracks...  electronic emails never go away...

 

PP thoughts, looking from a distance...

Best regards,

-a-

[PT20J]

Latest  Boeing/MAX news update from AIAA:

Boeing Hopes To Restart Production Of 737 MAX in Spring

The Associated Press (1/22) reports that Boeing CEO David Calhoun said that The Boeing Company will restart production on the 737 MAX “a few months before” June after temporarily suspending production earlier this month. Calhoun also “dismissed the idea that Boeing’s best-selling jet might never fly again or that the company should change the plane’s name,” saying of the jet, “I’m all in on it, the company is all in on it, and I believe the FAA is all in on it.” Calhoun “defended the company’s culture,” but he also said that the internal communications released earlier this month were “totally appalling.”

        Reuters (1/22) reports that Calhoun “declined to provide a specific date” for restarting production, indicating that it “will be reinvigorated months before that moment in June because we have to get that line started up again.” Calhoun said that Boeing “will slowly, steadily bring our production rate up a few months before that date in the middle of the year.”

        CNN (1/22) reports that “a long shutdown of production could make it more difficult to restart production.” Some Boeing suppliers, including Spirit AeroSystems, “now face their own financial problems due to Boeing’s assembly line shutdown.” Calhoun also “confirmed that Boeing will not lay off or furlough any of its own staff during the shutdown.”

        The Washington (DC) Post (1/22) reports that Calhoun said of his expectations that regulators will approve the 737 MAX to fly in June, “I’m not trying to be conservative.” He added, “I’m simply trying to put a reality-based set of numbers out there. You can attach this schedule to me.”

        Fox Business (1/22) reports that Boeing “shares rallied Wednesday” after Calhoun made his comments. The company’s shares had previously fallen “to their lowest level in more than a year a day earlier, when Boeing said the jetliner probably wouldn’t be able to resume commercial flights until June or July.”

        Recent 737 Max Delay Driven By Need For Simulator Training. The Wall Street Journal (1/22, Subscription Publication) reports that Calhoun indicated that the recent delay in forecast was largely due to the need for additional simulator training. He added that Boeing has been working heavily on improving the ability of airlines to access the simulators. CNBC (1/22) reports that Calhoun said, “The trigger was a decision we made with the help of the board regarding simulator training and our recommendation to go down that path. That was always going to elongate return to service.”

        Reuters (1/22) reports that according to comments made by Boeing Senior Managing Director Marketing Darren Hulst at the Airline Economic aircraft finance conference in Dublin, the delay “was not due to any new technical issues.” Hulst said, “Nothing new technically caused that. It was just our evaluation of the process, of progress and of the timeline.”

        Boeing CEO Calhoun: Company Will Not Cut Dividend As A Result Of Grounding. CNBC (1/22) reports that Boeing CEO David Calhoun emphasized Wednesday “that the company will not cut its dividend despite the extended grounding of its 737 Max jet.” Calhoun said, “I believe we have the financial capacity and capability to do the things we need to do ... but the recovery, when we get to the end and start shipping airplanes, etc., supports maintaining our dividend. And I will stay on that path unless something dramatic changes.”

        United Does Not Expect To Fly 737 MAX This Summer. Reuters (1/22) reports that United Airlines President Scott Kirby said on Wednesday that his airline does not plan to fly the Boeing 737 MAX this summer. Kirby said on an analyst call, “At this point, we’re assessing the impact of the schedule, but we do not anticipate flying the MAX this summer.”

        Air Canada Removes 737 Max From Schedule Until June 30. Reuters (1/22) reports that Air Canada “said on Wednesday it had removed” the Boeing 737 Max “from its flight schedule until June 30, 2020.” Air Canada, “which has 24 MAX aircraft in its fleet,” said that “the decision was based on operational considerations after Boeing revealed that the MAX’s return to service would be further delayed.” Similarly, following the news of the further delay, Canada’s WestJet Airlines also announced “it would remove the MAX from its schedule through June 24.”

        Flydubai To Consider Leasing Aircraft. Reuters (1/22) reports that flydubai “is considering leasing additional aircraft following the latest setback” in the Boeing 737 Max’s “return to service.” A flydubai spokeswoman said on Wednesday, “We are looking at short to medium-term leasing options to add more capacity for the coming few months.” Flydubai’s “order for 250 MAX jets is the second largest for the model after U.S. airline Southwest.”

        Analysts: 737 Max Bill Could Reach $25 Billion. Reuters (1/22) reports that according to Wednesday analyst estimates, Boeing’s “bill for the 737 MAX grounding could balloon to more than $25 billion” thanks to the recently announced delay. Jefferies analyst Sheila Kahyaoglu “said Boeing may now need to boost its compensation package for customers by another $10 billion and revise its cost estimate related to the 737 MAX’s production by an additional $5.4 billion.”

[carusoam]

Boeing is stuck between a couple of rocks and a hard place...

1) Their technical challenge needs to be solved...

2) Their Money is running tight...

3) They are still building planes and storing them all over the place...

4) Customers are a bit on the hook, and will try to wait...

5) The FAA doesn’t seem to like assumptions...  it’s their nature to be clear about not being able to set due dates for approval.  The FDA gets really funny about drug approval schedules too... 

Calhoun, the new guy in the CEO suite, is going to be a very public figure by the time this job is completed... mid summer?

Does it make financial sense to OH an entire 757 while waiting on a new plane approval?

PP thoughts only, Go Boeing!

Best regards,

-a-

[Tim Jodice]

7 hours ago, carusoam said:

Does it make financial sense to OH an entire 757 while waiting on a new plane approval?

PP thoughts only, Go Boeing!

Best regards,

-a-

Or older 737s that prior to the max problem were to be retired because they were due for expensive inspections.

I dont know but I would think all airliners would have inspections like this. I love this video!

 

[jetdriven]

It does. The 737 doesn’t have an EICAS. Like the 757 which came from the 70s and has gone through a whole generation.  

I liked flying the airplane but it was from the same era as the 747-200. Obsolete. Cheap to run, though. 

[M20F]

On 1/23/2020 at 1:52 PM, cliffy said:My history goes back to the days of Bob Six at CAL (who I met during my time there), and Maytag at National and Eddie Rickyback  at Eastern and other of the like. These men were Titans in the airline business then. With them it was personal and their reputations went with the performance of the airline. Then the "suits" came in (as we called them) and had their compensation delivered on quarterly profits. Two years of good quarters and they were gone to other conquests. At least that's the way it seemed to those in the trenches. 

 

Those guys had the benefit of CAB, the suits didn’t.  I get both sides of the business but I notice all these smart pilots never put a suit on and show how you run a business (aside from the UA debacle).  Running a business is really hard, running an airline is impossible.  Flying a plane, not so much.  
 

I loved the 727 the most.  The 757 was a great plane but as Geebee states very expensive.  The problem today is the 757/767 were a tag team.  Boeing brought the 787 to replace the 76 but the 75 is vacant.  Ultimately 73/78/77 in the right variations work, theoretically room for a 4th but I become less and less sure. 

[Jim Peace]

And then there is the 767

[cliffy]

1 hour ago, M20F said:

Those guys had the benefit of CAB, the suits didn’t.  I get both sides of the business but I notice all these smart pilots never put a suit on and show how you run a business (aside from the UA debacle).  Running a business is really hard, running an airline is impossible.  Flying a plane, not so much.  
 

I loved the 727 the most.  The 757 was a great plane but as Geebee states very expensive.  The problem today is the 757/767 were a tag team.  Boeing brought the 787 to replace the 76 but the 75 is vacant.  Ultimately 73/78/77 in the right variations work, theoretically room for a 4th but I become less and less sure. 

I agree to a point. The old timers had their reputation tied to the airline unlike the suits of today. "Your" airline goes under and in those days the CEO just didn't pick up and go to another airline.  I worked for one airline after CAB where we went TU and the CEO was running another airline 90 days later. No harm, no foul, just business as usual. 

Agreed most airline drivers have never run a business or an airline. At one airline we found that passengers would change airlines (before change fees) for $5 per ticket. Its a cut throat business. Announce a new route and the big players swamp that route with $10 fares all of a sudden. At one airline we ran MCI to LAX for $29. Actually had a family get off after a round trip and tell me they couldn't afford to go on vacation but this trip was fine for a days outing (with meals and drinks included)!. Same airline we started MCI-ICT service. As a Check Airman I had the first run. I noticed something wrong at the gate when I went to check loads- NO PASSENGERS IN THE TERMINAL on the first leg  and none listed for the return????     Why you ask?     Because the suits forgot to release the flight to sales. No one knew were flying!!!!

 "Life's hard but its even harder if your stupid"

[Immelman]

Sounds like the real experts here have weighed in. Thank you GeeBee & cliffy.

I am an A320-series flyer, and aside from missing flying an airplane the way an airplane was meant to be flown, when the automation is turned off, (at least I get to do that in my Mooney) it is a great place to work. We all love the 321neo.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Immelman

[Andy95W]

Agree with Immelman- the Boeing may be a better airplane to fly, but the Airbus is a much better place to work.

At this point in my career, I'd rather be comfortable. I fly my Mooney when I want to have fun.

[MooneyMitch]

If you are not aware of this, or not aware of this article, it's very, very interesting! 

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it" could apply here !

 

https://theaircurrent.com/aircraft-development/mcas-may-not-have-been-needed-on-the-737-max-at-all/IIf

[Bluevalley]

On 1/26/2020 at 11:12 PM, Andy95W said:

Agree with Immelman- the Boeing may be a better airplane to fly, but the Airbus is a much better place to work.

At this point in my career, I'd rather be comfortable. I fly my Mooney when I want to have fun.

Ok i'll bite. Having flown both, why do you think the "buss" is a much better place to work?

[GeeBee]

Quiet, roomy, well laid our cockpit. It is however an airplane that does not like to be mishandled. You fly it the way it was designed to be flown, not as you would prefer and it will treat you good. Go off the beaten path and bad results usually follow.

 

[cliffy]

Its the grizzled old WWII pilot compared to the 2020 computer nerd with 5 screens 

The grizzled old veteran eats his meal from a paper bag while the nerd sets a table.

Are you flying a real airplane or are you vacationing at a resort with a computer game in hand?

Just remember that recently the FAA has become aware (finally) that all that automation leads to a degradation of hand flying skills

Having flown both I'll go with the Boeing  But then again I remember BMEP  :-)

[Andy95W]

1 hour ago, Bluevalley said:

Ok i'll bite. Having flown both, why do you think the "buss" is a much better place to work?

 

55 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

Quiet, roomy, well laid our cockpit. 

⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️

This.

[Bob - S50]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

Quiet, roomy, well laid our cockpit. It is however an airplane that does not like to be mishandled. You fly it the way it was designed to be flown, not as you would prefer and it will treat you good. Go off the beaten path and bad results usually follow.

 

Ya, but the Airbus has no flight controls, just voting devices.  The pilot puts a vote in with the stick/rudder/brakes and the airplane decides what it will really do.

[GeeBee]

1 hour ago, Bob - S50 said:

Ya, but the Airbus has no flight controls, just voting devices.  The pilot puts a vote in with the stick/rudder/brakes and the airplane decides what it will really do.

The airplane will do anything a Boeing will do. It just won't let you do what you would try and fail to accomplish in a Boeing.

 

[Bob - S50]

39 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

The airplane will do anything a Boeing will do. It just won't let you do what you would try and fail to accomplish in a Boeing.

 

On the other hand, if I need to bend the wings to save my ass, the Boeing will let me.  The Airbus will not.

[GeeBee]

When would that be?

 

[cliffy]

Has anyone besides me ever actually been able to compare the two going down an ILS on a perfectly dead calm morning while guided by the autopilot?

The Boeing flies like its on rails while the AB wallows like a drunken sailor

The AB stability program in the AB is a joke in this instance. On those occasions I'd uncouple and hand fly which I could do better than the AP in the AB. The wallowing and hunting drove me nuts. 

[GeeBee]

Only flown the A330,  but it was rock solid.

 

[Tim Jodice]

The never ending Boeing vs Airbus. look at the company rather than just the product. When Airbus makes a mistake it is something like building the wrong airplane (A340 & A380) for the market. When Boeing makes a mistake it works out to be a Frankenstein 60 year old 737 that kills people. Oh yeah I forgot it wasn't a mistake.

The max mess is why i asked about theses two airplanes. the 757 does what it was meant to do 40 years later with few changes yet has proven to be a safe workhorse aircraft. A 777 a clean sheet airplane now 25 years old is a fantastic aircraft and is just now having an update done. Obviously Boeing is very good at building aircraft if they want to.

 

A little trivia to add, the A340 is currently the safest airliner having never had an accident.