LS3 - It's not just for Corvettes

[Yetti]

The person mentioned in this article was one of the experts in corvette engines and airplanes.  https://www.yourconroenews.com/neighborhood/moco/news/article/Plane-crash-kills-2-from-Conroe-9256256.php

[Yetti]

10 hours ago, Blue on Top said:

Okay.  You win, @Yetti   If I think it is difficult to cool a water cooled engine, you'll have a great time trying to lower the drag of air cooling 9, individual cylinders evenly around each cylinder.

I am kinda curious how a Mooney would look with a radial on it (I know someone will photoshop it).  The Mooney does look good as a taildragger, though.  Y'all are awesome! 

There would be a large increase in frontal area.   I would think the MP14 would go better on a P-51 Mustang or Spitfire.

[Stephen]

On 1/17/2020 at 10:20 PM, Blue on Top said:

@Stephen  OMG!!!  I'm in love … with the back half at least!  I look and see so much drag, though .  Awesome job in Photoshop!

I know the tail is big, but I was thinking spins approved for this one...

[mike_elliott]

On 1/17/2020 at 12:12 AM, Blue on Top said:

For those wanting a marine engine converted and certificated, please add the weight of a gear box and the weight of a lake full of water so that we can compare weights apples to apples.  IOW, a radiator is not the same of a lake full of 80 degree water.  One of the problems of cooling a water cooled engine is the drag caused by cooling the water.  Please consider the maximums water temperature coming out of the engine as at 210F.  If the OAT (outside air temperature) is 120F (yes, in certification, that's the regulation), that gives us a temperature delta of 90 degrees.  To get the 210F water temperature down to even 150F would take a very, very large and/or very, very thick radiator, and the air would have to be slowed down a lot to be able to transfer the heat out of the water.  There's a ton of cooling drag slowing the air down that much.

To the poster that mentioned the M10 (sorry for not remembering your name), replacing the diesel with something else is a great idea, but that was not our marching orders.  100% carbon fiber, Garmin and diesel at a cost below $XXX,XXX was.  Ironically, cost of those 3 raw items alone are greater than $XXX,XXX.  

So its Garmins fault

 

[John Mininger]

12 hours ago, Blue on Top said:

@John Mininger  Thanks for the article.  I have found a lot of the PAV data.  Their goal was a little different, but it is very applicable.  They wanted to use the engine "as is" without a gearbox, which causes great inefficiencies in the application.

What intrigued me about the PAV concept was it was entirely compromised to be manufacturable. From the commonality of airframe parts, to the out of the crate LS1 engine. The most complicated component that I saw was the ducted fan “propulsor”. And while it was not as efficient as a traditional propeller, it did have certain other advantages. Lower noise, it allowed higher RPM from the direct drive engine, and more safety from inherit prop strikes.

 One of my biggest disappointments in aviation development was when Bombardier decided to shelve their V6 project.  Here was an experienced engine company, well capitalized, (or at least I thought so) that had the best chance of any at coming out with a modern GA piston spark ignition engine. Ah well, I guess ‘twas not to be. But every year at Oshkosh I ask Rotax if there’s any chance the V6 program will be revisited. I always hear no, but last year someone at Rotax after he said no to that question added to not be too surprised if in the next few years we see a 6 cylinder derivative of the 900 series.

So I guess there’s always hope.

Anyone have any inside info on how Deltahawk and EPS are doing?

[aviatoreb]

28 minutes ago, John Mininger said:

Anyone have any inside info on how Deltahawk and EPS are doing?

I used to be extremely interested and positive on the Deltahawk.  I think they have been vaporware now for 15 years so I have little interest to stay indefinitely interested.  EPS seems to be more realistic and fantastical, and I am guessing it will come to bear.  Will it ever hang on a Mooney?  Probably not.  Probably more likely on say something like a Cessna 402 in the Cape Air fleet.

[John Mininger]

6 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I used to be extremely interested and positive on the Deltahawk.  I think they have been vaporware now for 15 years so I have little interest to stay indefinitely interested.  EPS seems to be more realistic and fantastical, and I am guessing it will come to bear.  Will it ever hang on a Mooney?  Probably not.  Probably more likely on say something like a Cessna 402 in the Cape Air fleet.

I lost a lot of faith in Deltahawk through the years also. But since they’ve been funded by the Rudd family, I’ve regained my interest.

The last I heard, EPS was working with Bosch to get their software certified, or at least certifiable. They really wanted to go after the Tecnam 2012 that Cape Air is now buying.

 I have my doubts also that we’ll see the EPS in a Mooney.

[Yetti]

In the 100 HP range there is a guy that makes a PRU that is geared for the BMW 1200 GS series engine.   Which is kind of cool because the BMW is dual spark.   You have to get a new harness to get rid of the CANBus system.  And of course it is designed to be out in the wet and elements.

[aviatoreb]

3 hours ago, John Mininger said:

I lost a lot of faith in Deltahawk through the years also. But since they’ve been funded by the Rudd family, I’ve regained my interest.

The last I heard, EPS was working with Bosch to get their software certified, or at least certifiable. They really wanted to go after the Tecnam 2012 that Cape Air is now buying.

 I have my doubts also that we’ll see the EPS in a Mooney.

...what happened new with Deltahawk?

I am a bit excited about EPS and Cape Air.  Cape Air flies locally here and I know some of the pilots.  I have actually more than once even thought of seeing if they would take a part timer stand by pilot (me) on maybe a once a week basis - but hey - I have a day job and that's not a good idea and I bet they wouldn't.  Anyway I do fly as a passenger on Cape sometimes so whatever they fly, I will get to sit in.

[Mooneymite]

Suzuki!  The low cost airplane engine design.  

 

[Blue on Top]

13 hours ago, steingar said:

The only auto engines I've ever heard of having much success in aviation are air-cooled ones like the VW and Corsair.  And even then, the success is mixed at best.  We shouldn't forget that John Monnet's son died flying one of his VW powered designs.

@steingar  Agree with you, and Ron W. does a great job of both acquisition of the accident data and the analysis of it.   On a good note for the rest of us, time is not money for most homebuilders.  Most will spend hundreds of hours to save a couple hundred dollars; I applaud their efforts (I too am one).

I talked to a former co-worker and friend about some of his projects a couple days ago.  One was converting a marine engine for aircraft use (for an outside company).  I kinda questioned his logic on cooling.  Marine engines are very compact, and an infinite water supply is critical.  He said that they hadn't looked into cooling real well yet.  We'll see.  The LS/LT-series was built for high power.   My plan is not to go there  

Similarly, O-200s that output 200+HP don't do it for very long either 

Thanks, Ron

PS.  Had to look up KOSU to see which school won that battle.  Go Big Ten!

Edited January 25, 2020 by Blue on Top
Add the PS

[Blue on Top]

12 hours ago, Stephen said:

I know the tail is big, but I was thinking spins approved for this one...

@Stephen  I honestly think that the M20 could pass spin testing (if not with minor mod), but the real question is, "Why?"  There is good vertical surface area outside the horizontal wake.  On most models there is rudder below the horizontal (better if it were trapped by the horizontal).  The nose goes very low on entry, but … The loss of altitude is very large.  Spin recoverable only gains the ability to practice loss of control at higher altitudes … not so much in the pattern.  Definitely don't try this at home (or airborne) … especially without a spin chute.

[Blue on Top]

12 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

So its Garmins fault

That my story … and I'm sticking to it.  I could write a book.  Oh wait, there's more to that, too.

The funniest (depending on one's viewpoint) part about my entire career has been that I am often brutally open and honest (and always honest), and people don't believe me.  But they will turn around and believe anything that can't physically be possible.  I know that I am not alone, but there are fewer and fewer of us daily. 

[McMooney]

while driving my car today,

i noticed it's at 1613 hrs.  I was instantly terrified about the prospect of an overhaul in a few hundred hours. oh yeah that's only 40k miles.

My belief, with proper engineering, and i do say proper, an auto engine could be successful.  who's willing to pay for it

 

 

[Blue on Top]

7 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

Suzuki!  The low cost airplane engine design.  

@Mooneymite  Cool!  They get more then automotive-rated HP and longer life out of a stock engine than the OEM! 

[Blue on Top]

36 minutes ago, McMooney said:

while driving my car today,

i noticed it's at 1613 hrs.  I was instantly terrified about the prospect of an overhaul in a few hundred hours. oh yeah that's only 40k miles.

My belief, with proper engineering, and i do say proper, an auto engine could be successful.  who's willing to pay for it

@McMooney  Have you really installed an hour meter in your car? … and is it straight time or tach time?  Not only am I laughing now, you are my hero if you actually have an hour meter in your car.

PS. Trying to use previous data and data from other industries to cut development costs.

Edited January 25, 2020 by Blue on Top
Add the PS

[Blue on Top]

@John Mininger  I have also heard a rumor that NASA bought a lot of LS-series engines to use as gensets (generator sets to produce electric power).  Not sure for which research airplane(s).  X-57?

Now that I think about this more and knowing electric airplanes are already weight challenged (and a genset is not weight efficient), they're also going to need to add the Flight Engineer station back into the cockpit so they can tell where all that smoke got out of the plastic tubing so that they can try to stop that from continuing.  Skywriting in an electric airplane just isn't real cool … yet.

[Raptor05121]

tl;dr'ed the entire thread just to drop this- my previous mechanic had an Aero Commander 690 with LS engines (don't know what type). He's been working on getting it certified for a long time- perpetual FAA roadblocks from what I hear. It sounds like two Corvettes in 6th gear doing 100mph when it flies past you. Very dull tone like the T-28 Trojan

[0TreeLemur]

On 1/15/2020 at 1:18 PM, bob865 said:

Kinda like this guy?

 

weird- it's spinning the wrong direction.  Left rudder on takeoff anyone?

[Blue on Top]

6 hours ago, Raptor05121 said:

tl;dr'ed the entire thread just to drop this- my previous mechanic had an Aero Commander 690 with LS engines (don't know what type). He's been working on getting it certified for a long time- perpetual FAA roadblocks from what I hear. It sounds like two Corvettes in 6th gear doing 100mph when it flies past you. Very dull tone like the T-28 Trojan

@Raptor05121  Is this in Florida?  I plan to attend Sun-N-Fun.  It would be a great side trip!  Thanks!

[Blue on Top]

1 hour ago, 0TreeLemur said:

weird- it's spinning the wrong direction.  Left rudder on takeoff anyone?

Interesting, but Why?  400HP on a C172?  It's a homesick angel with 225HP O-470 (yes, there's an STC for that).

Just a side note, but is the company name an oxymoron of "Quiet Aviation"?  A 300HP C180/185  propeller goes supersonic.   He'll need to go to an 8-bladed prop to absorb all that HP. 

[0TreeLemur]

After watching that video- there is no way I would want to fly an aircraft with an engine that sounds like a GM automobile engine.   Just my opinion.

Growing up around irrigated agriculture where natural gas powered big-block GM engines without mufflers pumped groundwater for days on end, that sound just doesn't mean anything like "flight" to me.

[EricJ]

13 hours ago, Raptor05121 said:

tl;dr'ed the entire thread just to drop this- my previous mechanic had an Aero Commander 690 with LS engines (don't know what type). He's been working on getting it certified for a long time- perpetual FAA roadblocks from what I hear. It sounds like two Corvettes in 6th gear doing 100mph when it flies past you. Very dull tone like the T-28 Trojan

That looks like the airplane from the Orenda motor testing.   My understanding is that those engine reached full certification.

http://epi-eng.com/aircraft_engine_conversions/orenda_on_aero_commander.htm

 

[carusoam]

Eric,

At the bottom of the article there is a link...

Why the project came to an end... I clicked the link and copied the result here...

http://epi-eng.com/aircraft_engine_conversions/evaluating_a_conversion.htm#extbadexamp

Essentially, the power of the engines was great....  but, the weight on the wings wasn’t properly accounted for?

each of the full-up V8s weighed a couple hundred more pounds...

Sounds like some additional engineering and wing parts would be needed to complete the project...

So the Orenda guys seem to have built a usable power plant... just not for the wing mounted case....

Best regards,

-a-

[Volzalum]

The moose airplane has at least one flying with the ls3.