Icy landing

[MooneyMitch]

“It is great to be young and stupid“

And to have lived to tell about it ! 

For clarification, I’m not admonishing.  I’m relating to some of my past youthful experiences in life as well.  

What’s that about no old bold pilots ? 

[GeeBee]

1 hour ago, takair said:

It is actually different than what you describe.  Maybe approved is not the right word, but it is sanctioned and recognized by the FAA, which does mean something to insurance companies.  Like many small airports, it may not be for every airplane or every one, but it does have a designator.  Seaplane in summer and ice in winter. Please don’t take my mention of this as a suggestion that it is as safe as a dry, wide, paved runway.  Use at your own risk.  Google for more info.  
 

https://nfdc.faa.gov/nfdcApps/services/ajv5/airportDisplay.jsp?airportId=B18

I think  if you look at your policy for your Mooney it will specify paved runways only. Heck, I had to pay extra to get it removed for my SuperCub

[kortopates]

I think  if you look at your policy for your Mooney it will specify paved runways only. Heck, I had to pay extra to get it removed for my SuperCub

Definitely not true, if yours is so restricted I'd think yours is in the minority. First I've ever heard of that.


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[takair]

14 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Definitely not true, if yours is so restricted I'd think yours is in the minority. First I've ever heard of that.


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Agree. As I recall, it may make a difference if I was based on a non-paved runway, but no other restrictions. 

[TGreen]

On 12/20/2019 at 6:16 PM, aviatoreb said:

I made a landing last year this time at KHFD -Hartford Brainard, on 100% ice - breaking action is nil it said- but zero wind and 4000ft.  So fly it til it stops and don't touch the breaks.  Slow motion taxi to the fbo.  And the walk to the fbo from the plane was a slow motion and treacherous.  Ever watch a hockey coach walk on the ice - slide your feet - don't pickem up and very short strides.

Well as long as we're confessing, I had this exact experience landing at Mammoth Lakes (KMMH) last winter. No wind, black ice, didn't touch the brakes or rudder pedals on roll out. Could barely walk on the tarmac. It all worked out, but never again.

[Gagarin]

On icy runways avoid holding up the nose wheel after the mains touch, relax the yoke. The nose wheel will give you added control avoiding weathervane effect during crosswinds. 

[GeeBee]

2 hours ago, kortopates said:

Definitely not true, if yours is so restricted I'd think yours is in the minority. First I've ever heard of that.


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Yep, just checked. My liability is good, but hull damage on an unpaved runway is not covered. USAIG.

 

[N201MKTurbo]

I think in most cases, like a gear up or something they may well cover it, but if you try to claim your gear doors or prop got messed up on a dirt strip, they aren't going to fix that.

[takair]

This conversation motivated me to look at my policy.  Interestingly, the exclusion regarding ice reads like this:

(g) Taxi, take off or landing on snow or ice, while the aircraft is equipped with skis.

So, looks like I’m covered as long as I keep the wheels on.

[GeeBee]

Depends on the type of skis 

[kortopates]

3 hours ago, GeeBee said:

Yep, just checked. My liability is good, but hull damage on an unpaved runway is not covered. USAIG.

 

Interesting. I also have a USAIG policy. So I was surprised to read you verified hull damage is not covered on an unpaved policy. My policy has no such exclusion - that I can find. Is your USAIG policy their "USAIG All Clear Aircraft Policy" supplemented by their "Preferred Pilot Coverage Expansion"? Which to the best of my knowledge is their standard issued policy. Would you mind directing me to the title of the paragraph or section where yours mentions this limitation. I am even searched on "unpaved" , "unimproved" and found nothing. Appreciate your help as I don't want to be wrong about this since I visit some dirt runways every year south of the border and I haven't yet seen anyone's USAIG policy that wasn't written the same as mine - but I am no insurance expert either.

[kortopates]

3 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I think in most cases, like a gear up or something they may well cover it, but if you try to claim your gear doors or prop got messed up on a dirt strip, they aren't going to fix that.

Before I just reviewed my policy I would have thought the same way. But with respect to aircraft damage my policy excludes very little, mostly damage to tires (except for vandalism they cover) and Wear & Tear they don't, nor Engine breakdown including any accessory of the engine that results in breakdown (like a mag). So I believe from that, if I hit a rock that damages my gear door on rollout I am probably covered. Prop damage is little harder since typical nicks and gouges would probably be considered normal wear and tear and deterioration from operating off an unimproved runway but maybe hitting a big rock causing a prop strike would be covered - at least for engine teardown if not the prop directly. (i am pretty sure the prop it self is not covered just from accounts we've read here about prop-strikes.)

[kortopates]

2 hours ago, takair said:

This conversation motivated me to look at my policy.  Interestingly, the exclusion regarding ice reads like this:

(g) Taxi, take off or landing on snow or ice, while the aircraft is equipped with skis.

So, looks like I’m covered as long as I keep the wheels on.

Mine (USAIG) policy doesn't even use the words, "snow" or "ice" nor "skis". May I ask who your underwriter is?

[takair]

1 minute ago, kortopates said:

Mine (USAIG) policy doesn't even use the words, "snow" or "ice" nor "skis". May I ask who your underwriter is?

Global

[N201MKTurbo]

15 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Before I just reviewed my policy I would have thought the same way. But with respect to aircraft damage my policy excludes very little, mostly damage to tires (except for vandalism they cover) and Wear & Tear they don't, nor Engine breakdown including any accessory of the engine that results in breakdown (like a mag). So I believe from that, if I hit a rock that damages my gear door on rollout I am probably covered. Prop damage is little harder since typical nicks and gouges would probably be considered normal wear and tear and deterioration from operating off an unimproved runway but maybe hitting a big rock causing a prop strike would be covered - at least for engine teardown if not the prop directly. (i am pretty sure the prop it self is not covered just from accounts we've read here about prop-strikes.)

I talked to my broker about these type of things and he says that if it is a legit claim, they will probably pay it. He says if they start denying real claims for technicalities people won’t buy their insurance any more.

[jaylw314]

On 12/21/2019 at 2:19 PM, Yetti said:

The wind is blowing across the runway. With no friction to hold the upwind main, the plane just slides sideways.  My Fight Instructor in Houston went to be a Pilot in Alaska.  He relayed the story to me.   We don't have many icy runways in Houston.

I still don't get it.  If you're still flying in a forward slip after touching down on the upwind wheel, the plane should not be drifting off to the side (unless you let the downwind wing drop).  Once the plane slows down enough you can't hold that slip, even with full aileron, then the downwind wheel is going to end up on the ground at that point anyway...

[N201MKTurbo]

15 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

I still don't get it.  If you're still flying in a forward slip after touching down on the upwind wheel, the plane should not be drifting off to the side (unless you let the downwind wing drop).  Once the plane slows down enough you can't hold that slip, even with full aileron, then the downwind wheel is going to end up on the ground at that point anyway...

You cannot maintain a forward slip once on the ground. Your thrust vector will be straight ahead. The wings will no longer supply a lift vector into the wind. The wind will blow you sideways.

If you are in a crab with the thrust vector into the wind, you will slide straight down the runway.

[jaylw314]

5 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

You cannot maintain a forward slip once on the ground. Your thrust vector will be straight ahead. The wings will no longer supply a lift vector into the wind. The wind will blow you sideways.

If you are in a crab with the thrust vector into the wind, you will slide straight down the runway.

You can maintain a forward slip once you're on the ground if you keep the downwind wheel off the ground after you touch down.  Yes, I can see that once both wheels are on the ground, by definition your lift vector can no longer help negate the crosswind, but we were talking about landing on one wheel.

 

[larrynimmo]

9 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

You cannot maintain a forward slip once on the ground. Your thrust vector will be straight ahead. The wings will no longer supply a lift vector into the wind. The wind will blow you sideways.

If you are in a crab with the thrust vector into the wind, you will slide straight down the runway.

on my landing, wind was from the right....I landed straight and started drifting to the left, as I corrected, the plane was slipping to the right drifting straight down the runway  (holding about a 20 degree slip)  until speed slowed, then I went nose straight, and had a slight drift to the left.  My guess is in the end I was about 15 feet to the left of centerline.  plane slid very smoothly, no wheel grab, no noise..no hard landing... just very uncomfortable for me.  I will never knowingly put my self in this situation again.

[N201MKTurbo]

6 minutes ago, larrynimmo said:

on my landing, wind was from the right....I landed straight and started drifting to the left, as I corrected, the plane was slipping to the right drifting straight down the runway  (holding about a 20 degree slip)  until speed slowed, then I went nose straight, and had a slight drift to the left.  My guess is in the end I was about 15 feet to the left of centerline.  plane slid very smoothly, no wheel grab, no noise..no hard landing... just very uncomfortable for me.  I will never knowingly put my self in this situation again.

If you know what it is going to do before you land it isn't that big of a deal. If you are trying to figure it out on the fly, it can be a handful. They don't teach this in pilot school.

[GeeBee]

12 hours ago, kortopates said:

Interesting. I also have a USAIG policy. So I was surprised to read you verified hull damage is not covered on an unpaved policy. My policy has no such exclusion - that I can find. Is your USAIG policy their "USAIG All Clear Aircraft Policy" supplemented by their "Preferred Pilot Coverage Expansion"? Which to the best of my knowledge is their standard issued policy. Would you mind directing me to the title of the paragraph or section where yours mentions this limitation. I am even searched on "unpaved" , "unimproved" and found nothing. Appreciate your help as I don't want to be wrong about this since I visit some dirt runways every year south of the border and I haven't yet seen anyone's USAIG policy that wasn't written the same as mine - but I am no insurance expert either.

I also have the same policy but it is not in the boiler plate but in the declarations page.

[Marauder]

I also have the same policy but it is not in the boiler plate but in the declarations page.

Interesting. I just went through my policy and I don’t have any restrictions for unpaved runways. I wonder if this is something new. My policy was issued by USAIG in March 2019.


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[Marauder]

Also, how long have you been with them? I have been covered by them since the mid 1990s.


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[GeeBee]

I actually worked for them in the 1980's for about a year as a loss prevention auditor. They know me well.I have had airplanes insured by them since 2010. The difference is in the individual underwriter. I don't mind the exclusion as I have no reason or desire to land a Mooney on unpaved runways anyway. My guess is the underwriter that wrote my dec, has been burned on gear doors loss or it may be my agent agreeing to the stipulation to get a lower quote.

 

 

[kortopates]

3 hours ago, GeeBee said:

I also have the same policy but it is not in the boiler plate but in the declarations page.

thanks for that. I just checked my declaration page and it also lacks any reference to airports or runways of any kind like @Marauder I haven't had mine as long as Chris, but since early 2000's and coverage of Central America and Caribbean as well as no restrictions on dirt airports were key requirements when I originally went with USAIG along with their excellent claims reputation. Heck, even Alaska needed a dirt or gravel strip landing. They weren't the cheapest but they provided me with coverage I wouldn't otherwise have with some other underwriters.  

Your experience though has me realizing that if I was ever to submit a claim that resulted from a dirt strip, that next year's policy might likely come with a similar restriction. But 15+ years and I've never had any issues.